How does one find a university teaching position in Taiwan?

[ScottSommers]

[quote=“smithsgj”]Hi Scott, thanks for your contribution to this thread and for painting a realistic picture. Tomorrow evening for the beer challenge?

@ScottSommers

[quote=“smithsgj”] (Also: There is a whole (EIL/ELF) literature that says native speakers no longer have “ownership” of the English language. This research has rather gone to the heads of quite a lot of Taiwanese English teachers.)

Dr. Smith, this is one of those points on which I disagree. Although it is irrelevant to the post
[/quote]

What do you disagree with here Scott? The fact that EIL (and also NNS teacher) research exists (surely not)? or the fact that many Taiwan local profs do believe, because of this research, that native English speakers are no better qualified to teach Taiwanese students than they themselves?

If I’m right, then the remark was relevant to my post, I think, because I was listing reasons why a Taiwanese hiring committee might prefer Taiwanese teachers. But of course I could be wrong![/quote]

I guess I’ve missed the ‘tomorrow night challege’. Let’s wait until after Jan 15th when all my classes are over.

It’s not that I really disagree with you. You are correct that this could be a reason why a hiring committee would not hire a NS teacher. I guess my feeling was that as a rule, this is not a concern. Some schools (like MCU) prefer NSE teachers. I am sure you’re right that some schools prefer to hire NNSE teachers because they believe they have better connection to their students and all that stuff.

One experience I had relevant to this. I once surveyed students in the English Education program at National Chiayi University. One of the questions I asked was about the type of English teacher they wanted. One student wrote on his survey that foreign teachers do not always understand their responsibility as educators in an Asian society and are not always appropriate. At lunch however, the students I ate with - who were chosen to eat with me - commented that they complain to their Taiwanese professors that they don’t have enough NSE teachers in the program. It is also my experience that at the commercial level, it is teachers and professors who want NSE teachers for themselves and their kids.

[Okami]

Mr. Summers,

 I know we have had our differences, but in honest curiosity. Do racialist overtones affect the willingness of Taiwanese universities to hire Taiwanese English teachers and then use foreign English teachers for themselves and their children? It doesn't seem to be an easy circle to square otherwise. 

Cheers,
Ty

[ScottSommers]

[quote=“Okami”]Mr. Sommers,

 I know we have had our differences, but in honest curiosity. Do racialist overtones affect the willingness of Taiwanese universities to hire Taiwanese English teachers and then use foreign English teachers for themselves and their children? It doesn't seem to be an easy circle to square otherwise. 

Cheers,
Ty[/quote]

I’m not sure what you mean by racism. I presume you mean that English teachers are preferred because of they are not Asians. This must be true in some cases. Ming Chuan University has the largest language center at any university in Taiwan. We have the most foreign teachers of any university in Taiwan. Speaking only for my school, our department has many faculty that are Asian-Americans, or even Taiwanese. In fact, many of the NSE teachers that Dr. Smith and I are talking about are not White people. At one time, we had Ukranians, Koreas, Filipino and Hong Kong Chinese teachers. I’m not really sure what this means for your question.

I generally don’t comment on issues of racism in English teaching outside of giving hiring advice. There must be a hundred other threads on this forum that talk about how NSE teachers make better buxiban teachers or that Eastern Europeans shouldn’t be teaching conversation classes at the university level. I have read here and other forums that NS can instantly tell who is only a high-level speaker of English from a non-native background. A moderator from forumosa.com once insisted to me this was a scientific fact. It would appear that despite the hiring practices of my school and others, the opinion repeatedly expressed here is that foreign teachers would have to be better.

I don’t know if this answers your question.

[Okami]

I apologize if I wasn’t clear.

-Universities in Taiwan prefer to hire native Taiwanese for teaching English classes.
-Those same people at university prefer to have themselves and their children taught by foreigners(NSE).

Now I know Ming Chuan is one(the only?) school that takes its English program seriously. I personally have nothing against a NNSE teaching English and in some cases can see it as being useful, i.e. he’s a master at explaining grammar. What gets me is the teaching staff hiring one way for the university, but privately for their own needs.

Now I’m not playing getcha here. I don’t care which way the answer goes. I know this hard to believe as I would squeeze your nuts as hard as I could in any other circumstance. It just seems to me that if the university staff prefer NSE(can we call him whitey?) instead of Taiwanese English teacher for themselves and their family, but when hiring for the school they prefer native Taiwanese as they are easier to deal with within the system.

I know we speak entirely different dialects of the same language and if you wish to switch to PM for a private explanation chat I fully understand. I know there are some threads I don’t comment on as I would be considered boorish if I made a honest argument for/against. I don’t consider this a debate so much as a learning experience. I make no qualms about my deep-seated disgust for what passes as academic speak. If you have any questions to get to the crux of my question I shall answer them to the best of my ability.

Cheers,
Okami

[ScottSommers]

@Okami

I know we speak entirely different dialects of the same language and if you wish to switch to PM for a private explanation chat I fully understand.

This comes up all the time, so I might as well state my opinion here. But thanks for asking.

[quote=“Okami”]-Universities in Taiwan prefer to hire native Taiwanese for teaching English classes.
-Those same people at university prefer to have themselves and their children taught by foreigners(NSE). [/quote]

This is the point that I was hoping to critize. Dr. Smith’s point was that there is a preference for NNSE teachers at some schools. I agree that there is preference at some schools, but in general, it is the most qualified candidate. One of these quaifications is language proficiency. This is much less of a problem recently, but in the past, there were many local teachers who had PhDs from the USA in education or ESL who had lower proficiency than you’d expect in an English teacher. Since that’s much less the case these days, you see many more local teachers being hired in positions that used to be held by foreign teachers.

@Okami

/Now I know Ming Chuan is one(the only?) school that takes its English program seriously.

There are many strong programs in Taiwan. Most of them have only local teachers or at least a majority of teachers who are Taiwanese.

But now to answer your question directly, I do not know if it is true that “university staff prefer NSE (can we call him whitey?) instead of Taiwanese English teacher for themselves and their family, but when hiring for the school they prefer native Taiwanese as they are easier to deal with within the system.” I can say that I have spoken to many university faculty and English education students who tell me they prefer NSET. I do not know how they hire people for university faculty positions. Dr. Smith is correct that some local university programs would use local teachers for the reasons he gave. I do not know if these are also the people I have spoken to. It’s possible this reflects confusion or professional disagreement about what makes someone the best qualified candidate.

In fact, there are very few NSET at the university level in Taiwan. As I said, the majority of us work at MCU. Also, I do not know how many university faculty or local English teachers send their kids to NSET buxibans. I have meet some. I have also meet people taught at home by English fluent Taiwanese relatives. They are very impressive speakers and have enormous socio-cultural competence.

I hope this answers your question, but if not, keep on asking.

[ironlady]

Hi,

Just an observation from my time (somewhat past now) in the trenches: the faculty and the students might prefer native speakers, but in the end it is the administration that has to deal with them, and they may give preference to a local since there is no visa problem (this is now different with the possibility of a native speaker holding a PARC), no communications problems, no cultural issues, no issues surrounding pension, sabbatical, publications, willingness to do lots more than is stated in the contract, and so on.

[ScottSommers]

[quote=“ironlady”]Hi,

Just an observation from my time (somewhat past now) in the trenches: the faculty and the students might prefer native speakers, but in the end it is the administration that has to deal with them, and they may give preference to a local since there is no visa problem (this is now different with the possibility of a native speaker holding a PARC), no communications problems, no cultural issues, no issues surrounding pension, sabbatical, publications, willingness to do lots more than is stated in the contract, and so on.[/quote]

You’re probably right in that there would be more NSET if not for administrative concerns. Handling the legality of foreign teachers as well as the practical issues of housing, etc are very real issues. Not to mention the special complications that sometimes arise in these situations.
forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic … 33&start=0

[bismarck]

@ScottSommers

I don’t know if that helps. Do you have any specific questions?

Hi Scott,

First off, thanks for the insightful and honest responses on the thread.
My questions are specific towards what you think may be the best way forward. I’m planning on applying for masters studies this year, but I’m unsure which way to go.

At the moment I’m in process of naturalizing, so I should be a Taiwanese citizen with ID card by early 2011, well before I would be finished with any MA (or later PhD) studies. Not sure how this would affect my future prospects, if at all, but I mention it for clarity’s sake.

I’m interested in three MA programs, all at NCKU.

1. MA in Political Economy
2. MA in History
3. MA in Linguistics

I’m much more interested in 1 and 2, and only partially interested in Linguistics. It’s on my list, because I have the preconceived idea (correctly or incorrectly) that being a native speaker and a foreigner (naturalized or not) I’d basically only be seen as fit for language teaching even at uni level. So not sure if my real interests in 1 and 2 would be of any use.
I mean, if I eventually got a PhD in Political Economy or History, what could I really do with that in Taiwan? I will never be at native Chinese speaker level and how could I ever teach that at uni level here as a result? From what you’re saying it seems that I would be better off doing linguistics and going all out for that.

I’m a bit frustrated by all of this and really not sure what to do. So I’m interested in your (and others) opinions as to which you may think would be the best way to go with the eye on teaching at uni level in Taiwan and doing research.

One thing I know for definite, I do not want to be teaching at buxibans (kids or adults) five years from now, and I would much rather uproot my family and head back to South Africa if there is no other option left to me. In general, ESL is not my thing (although the academic idea - research? - into how people learn languages etc. is somewhat interesting, and I am interested in Languages) and I would much prefer being in a research position with History or Political Economy in the future (both of which were my majors at university for my BA).

Any and all suggestions and opinions would be welcome.

[creztor]

[quote=“bismarck”]
I’m a bit frustrated by all of this and really not sure what to do. So I’m interested in your (and others) opinions as to which you may think would be the best way to go with the eye on teaching at uni level in Taiwan and doing research.

One thing I know for definite, I do not want to be teaching at buxibans (kids or adults) five years from now

Any and all suggestions and opinions would be welcome.[/quote]

I am in much the same boat. While I don’t want to do anything research related (maybe I should :|) nor get naturalized , I’d like to hear any recommendations also as I am feeling much the same way.

[smithsgj]

My (Taiwanese) wife is just starting a masters with NSYSU (Taipei part-time branch). It’s biz/social science (organizational behavior). As far as I can see they spend most of the time preparing and giving a bunch of flashy powerpoint presentations (in groups, taking turns to speak) about the textbook.

Everything is done in groups except exams:

They’ve just completed a “class assignment” which was a survey about the MRT. One group wrote the questionnaire, another group did the data analysis, a third one wrote the conclusions.

[ScottSommers]

The citizenship thing might be make it more difficult to apply. I presume you will have to give up your foreign passport and that would mean you are applying with the local students. You might want to check with the school on this, but if that’s the case, it would make it almost impossible to get in.

I am currently a Phd candidate in Educational Psychology at Shida. I applied as a foreign student. This gave me a different, and currently much easier, entrance procedure. In fact, I don’t know how much lower the bar was for me. Our department has 4 foreign passport holders as graduate students. One of them is Malayasian Chinese, but she grew up in Taipei. The other is Czech who graduated from an English-taught MA at Shida, but who speaks and reads amazing Chinese. Then there’re two guys who teach at Ming Chuan University. In fact, we were admited most likely because we have extensive experience in the field we want to study. Other departments may have a different standard and on the list of foreign passport holders accepted as students that the school released, most were admited.

On my blog, I have written that getting a degree here is not a good way to escape the buxiban. In fact, I do not have much advice for someone motivated by such forces. I have taught English for 20 years, most of which was at the buxiban level. I like teaching English and would probably still be teaching company classes if it gave as good a life as I have now.

Academic programs in Taiwan are aimed at Taiwanese students. This is especially true for masters-level programs. Programs in academic departments are designed with the same thing in mind as similar programs at universities in your home country. That is, prepare students to conduct scholarly research. In this case, that means primarily Taiwanese students for doctoral level research here or at a foreign - probably English-medium - university.

Many of students do not go on to doctoral studies, and instead get jobs at local or foreign companies. I do not know if a foreign citizen with one of these degrees would be viewed in the same light as his or her Taiwanese classmates. If you have friends in companies operating here, they would be better positioned to answer this question.

Many years, I lived in South Korea. At that time, the captain of the Seoul Survivors rugby team was Adrian from Britain (it was a long time ago and that’s all I can remember). Anyway, Adrian was the office manager for a major British investment bank. One of the players on the team once asked him about a local English-taught MBA that was being set up and how this would position him for a company like the one Adrian worked for. His reply was that it almost certainly would make no difference at all. Adrian went on elaborate that what his company needed was Korean-fluent people who knew the local business environment. I have never worked in a business company, but this does seem reasonable.

I don’t know if this helps. I have lots of opinions on this, so feel free to ask.

[Fortigurn]

I’m interested in resurrecting this thread since I’m looking at a couple of issues discussed here. I recently completed my Masters degree (Monash University, Melbourne), and I’m thinking about looking into work at a university here in Taiwan.

I am aware that the Ministry of Education here does not accept distance education degrees. That’s a problem, since I completed my degree by distance ed. However, I have read that more specifically the MoE requires a certain proportion of the degree to have been completed in person at the relevant university. I do qualify for that. I’d like to know what the actual details are, if it isn’t completely arbitrary. Of course it could be unfortunately true that I just wasted my time completing a Masters degree which will now be totally useless to me thanks to the MoE’s unending efforts to prevent foreigners working in Taiwan.

With regard to working for a university here, Michael Turton’s exhaustive guide has good news and bad news, and then more bad news, and even more bad news. Turton, having lived in Taiwan for many years, and clearly having had comprehensive experience of many facets of the country, is someone I’m inclined to take seriously, even though he does seem incredibly pessimistic about the entire nation and everyone in it except for his wife and kids (the cities are always dirty, the people are always stupid or deceitful, the government agencies are always incompetent or ignorant, and so on).

Among the many drawbacks of working in local universities, according to Turton, is that quite apart from living in Taiwan (most of which he describes with frequent references to dirt, filth, stench, crime, etc), he warns that you have to look at, speak to, and even teach, Taiwanese people. Apparently the students are mental cripples (‘incredible apathy’, ‘devastated lives’, ‘utterly devoid of passions’, ‘stunted lives’, ‘victimized by a brutal cookie cutter system’), and the staff are scheming liars (‘products of a lifetime of savage infighting in a system that rewards backstabbing and factional fighting and punishes ethical stances’), with some exceptions in both cases.

Not only that, but you are immersed in a system which he describes thus:

The result of this system is blighted, devastated lives, stunted personal growth, low self-esteem, poor student performance, a total lack of interest in learning, and gross economic and social inefficiency. Students are sorted by the test, not by desire, so many students are studying a subject in which they have no interest.

Turton also warns that local universities are typically connected to criminal gangs, and corruption in the administration is rife:

Let’s close with a shock introduction to your administration: at many schools the administration will be heavily connected to organized crime gangs. Sometimes it has bad luck and incompetence. And of course, plagiarism and bribery for promotion are rife.

However, wading through the utter contempt Turton pours on the entire higher education system and all its participants (and I hasten to add again that I’m not in a position to contest his view, having no experience of it myself), I find that overall he seems to actually like it for some reason. There are apparently satisfying experiences to be had, and a reasonable career to be made. So I’m tempted to explore it. Overall there must be some benefit from it, or he wouldn’t have spent so much time in the system.

The next issue however is that Turton seems to indicate that whereas technically there are positions available for those with a Masters degree, a PhD is far more likely to secure a position. He also points out that you will have an edge even if you are at least enrolled in a PhD. As much as it terrifies me to think about it, this has prompted me to wonder whether or not it’s worth getting a PhD in Taiwan. There are several problems I could foresee, however:

• Is it even possible to study a PhD here in English rather than Chinese?
• Would a PhD from a university in Taiwan be taken seriously elsewhere in the world?
• What would a PhD in Taiwan cost?

[zyzzx]

[quote=“Fortigurn”]The next issue however is that Turton seems to indicate that whereas technically there are positions available for those with a Masters degree, a PhD is far more likely to secure a position. He also points out that you will have an edge even if you are at least enrolled in a PhD. As much as it terrifies me to think about it, this has prompted me to wonder whether or not it’s worth getting a PhD in Taiwan. There are several problems I could foresee, however:

• Is it even possible to study a PhD here in English rather than Chinese?
• Would a PhD from a university in Taiwan be taken seriously elsewhere in the world?
• What would a PhD in Taiwan cost?[/quote]
  I would just remind you that a Ph.D is not something you should do unless you have a real passion for what you’re studying. It is generally a very long slog, and if you are more concerned about the end result than the process, it’s probably not going to go well.

[bismarck]

@Fortigurn - It does seem dismal. I’ve almost come to this conclusion from this thread (and other’s on the Forum), blogs and websites by folks like Michael and Scott that you only have two choices if you wish to “escape” the buxiban system and/or teach elsewhere (University etc).

1. Bugger off to your home country and complete an MA, if possible a PhD. Anything else is a complete waste of time, you’ll get nowhere and if you become a Taiwanese citizen you have zero to no chance of being accepted into a post graduate program (although, oddly enough, NCKU told me that due to budget constraints for foreign students/scholarships, with the exception of the iMBA program, a naturalized citizen would have a much easier time getting into the MA in English Lit/Linguistics than a foreign passport holder - although, for other MA degrees like History etc, being a foreigner would get you in much easier).
   And even if you do get an MA or PhD you still have very slim chances of getting a university position. from the sources mentioned, this scenario is the good news.
2. Apart from buxiban hell, or just getting lucky, there seems no point in hoping for a career in academia (or anything outside of buxiban hell) in Taiwan. If you actually want that you need to leave and go home, because those that got such positions were fortunate enough to get them back when it was easier. Going forward we’re all screwed.

So, for those of us living here who want to become citizens and make our lives in Taiwan, it seems that’s not going to happen. Becoming Taiwanese would only make it harder to get into post graduate studies and even more difficult to obtain a position outside of buxiban hell, because we aren’t native Chinese speakers. So we’re left with the option of working in an industry we don’t enjoy (I, personally, despise the buxiban industry on many levels), opening a tea shop or buggering off home.

Sorry if I seem somewhat negative, but I’ve seen nothing here or on any blogs or websites by foreigners working at universities that have given me any cause for optimism.
Initially I had hoped for advice on what to do to reach my goals, but all I’ve found is why I can’t do what I want.

So my advice to you is this:

[quote=“Fortigurn”]* Is it even possible to study a PhD here in English rather than Chinese?

• Would a PhD from a university in Taiwan be taken seriously elsewhere in the world?
• What would a PhD in Taiwan cost?[/quote]

1. Yes, I believe so. - But go check out universities you’re interested in, and their respective programs you’re interested in, and go talk to the lecturers at the relevant departments in person.
2. Yes, but it would probably depend on the university and the field of study.
3. That depends on the university, but for foreigners, if you get into a program, at the very least tuition is waived from what I’ve seen. In many cases they also offer scholarships. Same advice as one above applies, I think.

Personally, I’m done with asking advice. It’s gotten me nowhere and only made me negative. I know what I want to do and I’m just going to do it. If I hadn’t waited so long “asking for advice” I could’ve been well on my way to finished by now.
Good luck, mate.

[CraigTPE]

@Fortigurn

Among the many drawbacks of working in local universities, according to Turton, is that quite apart from living in Taiwan (most of which he describes with frequent references to dirt, filth, stench, crime, etc), he warns that you have to look at, speak to, and even teach, Taiwanese people. Apparently the students are mental cripples (‘incredible apathy’, ‘devastated lives’, ‘utterly devoid of passions’, ‘stunted lives’, ‘victimized by a brutal cookie cutter system’), and the staff are scheming liars (‘products of a lifetime of savage infighting in a system that rewards backstabbing and factional fighting and punishes ethical stances’), with some exceptions in both cases.

I don’t have any direct experience in the university system. I taught in a jr/sr high school, though, for 4 years and have remained in contact with former students who are progressing through their university programs. I also have a former colleague who took a university job about a year ago. Their feedback to me pretty much supports what Scott and Michael have written. If you take out any emotion from the vocabulary, it is a fairly accurate description of the education system in Taiwan.

Now what I also see happening quite often are foreigners who come here all idealistic and optimistic, thinking that the education system in Taiwan is probably somewhat like their system back home. When they discover it isn’t, the will try to change (improve?) the system, and get incredibly frustrated and unhappy. It’s been better for me to learn to navigate the system such as it is. Now if I could take that same attitude when I’m driving…

As always, there are exceptions to the above, but it is a fair description of the system in general.

[bismarck]

@CraigTPE

Now what I also see happening quite often are foreigners who come here all idealistic and optimistic, thinking that the education system in Taiwan is probably somewhat like their system back home. When they discover it isn’t, the will try to change (improve?) the system, and get incredibly frustrated and unhappy.

This is basically what happens in any teaching situation in Taiwan, whether you’re teaching at a university, jr/sr high, elementary school, (illegally) at a kindergarten or a buxiban. The only difference between any of those is the benefits…

I’ve heard massive complaints from foreigners studying MA/MBA programs here, also. One American mate of mine became so disillusioned that he quit after one semester.

It’s a completely different country and culture. No reason the education system should be any different.

[Fortigurn]

@zyzzx

I would just remind you that a Ph.D is not something you should do unless you have a real passion for what you’re studying. It is generally a very long slog, and if you are more concerned about the end result than the process, it’s probably not going to go well.

A point well made. Fortunately there are a number of subjects concerning which I am very passionate, and I genuinely enjoy the research process. I typically read 30-40 scholarly articles for each of my assignments during my Masters degree, even when they were only 1,500 words long. I have an strong interest in learning. It’s the only way I could have finished my Masters against tremendous odds, that’s for sure (two full time jobs and two part time jobs, with Masters jammed into whatever time was left).

[Fortigurn]

bismarck, your posts were extremely useful, thanks. CraigTPE, thanks also for your contribution. I wouldn’t have picked Turton as an idealistic optimist whose cherished hopes were cruelly dashed, but perhaps that’s the way it went. For myself, after almost 6 years in Taiwan I’m well aware that ‘It’s been better for me to learn to navigate the system such as it is’ applies to absolutely every aspect of Taiwan, and I can live with that. To a very large extent, that’s what it’s like the world over.

[CraigTPE]

@Fortigurn

CraigTPE, thanks also for your contribution. I wouldn’t have picked Turton as an idealistic optimist whose cherished hopes were cruelly dashed, but perhaps that’s the way it went. For myself, after almost 6 years in Taiwan I’m well aware that ‘It’s been better for me to learn to navigate the system such as it is’ applies to absolutely every aspect of Taiwan, and I can live with that. To a very large extent, that’s what it’s like the world over.

Sarchasm? :ohreally:

I never suggested Michael was one whose hopes were dashed. You labeled him as pessimistic. I was suggesting he was being realistic. It came across that you were criticizing him in sort of a “shoot the messenger” sort of way. Sorry if I gave the impression that I was saying you were one who came here and tried to change people. It was not my intention. I was speaking in general terms.

Lastly, your lengthy analysis of Michael’s writings didn’t seem to connect with your questions at the end of your post. The writings you paraphrased were about getting a job teaching in a Taiwanese uni and your questions were about studying in a Taiwanese uni.

[Fortigurn]

@CraigTPE

[quote=“Fortigurn”] CraigTPE, thanks also for your contribution. I wouldn’t have picked Turton as an idealistic optimist whose cherished hopes were cruelly dashed, but perhaps that’s the way it went. For myself, after almost 6 years in Taiwan I’m well aware that ‘It’s been better for me to learn to navigate the system such as it is’ applies to absolutely every aspect of Taiwan, and I can live with that. To a very large extent, that’s what it’s like the world over.

Sarchasm? :ohreally: [/quote]

No, not in the least.

I never suggested Michael was one whose hopes were dashed.

Sorry, I misread you.

You labeled him as pessimistic. I was suggesting he was being realistic.

I thought you were implying that the reason why he was this way was that he had originally come over all starry eyed and optimistic, but had reality beaten into him by the system.

It came across that you were criticizing him in sort of a “shoot the messenger” sort of way. Sorry if I gave the impression that I was saying you were one who came here and tried to change people. It was not my intention. I was speaking in general terms.

Thanks for the clarification. I didn’t intend to ‘shoot the messenger’, as I said I have no information to go on other than what experienced people like Turton provide.

Lastly, your lengthy analysis of Michael’s writings didn’t seem to connect with your questions at the end of your post. The writings you paraphrased were about getting a job teaching in a Taiwanese uni and your questions were about studying in a Taiwanese uni.

The two subjects are directly related in my post. I explained the connection:

@Fortigurn

The next issue however is that Turton seems to indicate that whereas technically there are positions available for those with a Masters degree, a PhD is far more likely to secure a position. He also points out that you will have an edge even if you are at least enrolled in a PhD. As much as it terrifies me to think about it, this has prompted me to wonder whether or not it’s worth getting a PhD in Taiwan.