How is Postal Voting a bad idea?

[Marco]

Alright. PM me then.

[11173]

Nah.

[11173]

I totally agree.

[Marco]

I can’t take you at your word my friend. You need to present an argument.

[Andrew0409]

@Marco

but I don’t think it happens to such a scale that would completely go against what people really want.

Around half the voting population doesn’t vote. I assume most of them live with others in the same house. You don’t see how this can change the landscape in a large enough scale?

Not to mention we have to think about the legitimacy of a vote if say I’m 18 and my parent pressure me to vote for someone when I don’t want to or don’t care. I just vote for the person they pushed to me.

The privacy of the ballot booth is also important.

[11173]

To be honest, I can’t think of one. But I’m still of the opinion that postal voting is a bad idea because it is too easy to cheat the system and not get caught.

[Marco]

That’s fine. It’s probably easy to cheat one or two. I just don’t think it’s easy to cheat one or two hundred million.

[Andrew0409]

@Marco

That’s fine. It’s probably easy to cheat one or two. I just don’t think it’s easy to cheat one or two hundred million.

The margin of victory have been pretty close in some states. I think the fact that you “think” it wouldn’t be easy to cheat is enough to not do it. You don’t know.

It’s already questionable how legitimate elections are when half of the voting population doesn’t vote. Those going out in empty ballots brings up more questions.

[welcome]

@Marco

That’s fine. It’s probably easy to cheat one or two. I just don’t think it’s easy to cheat one or two hundred million.

It’s easy for a lot of people to cheat one or two, or three … That might be all it takes in swing states.

[marasan]

@bojack

No, illegal in the US to use private mail to deliver ballots to a polling station. Probably a combination of anti-graft and the lack of serious Fed postal laws outside USPS.

I’ve been using DHL for some years now. I’m not in the US, but it seems it’s also okay in the US.

“Every courier service — FedEx, DHL, you name it — can deliver a ballot,” said Susan Dzieduszycka-Suinat, president and CEO of the nonprofit U.S. Vote Foundation. “That’s not a problem. The problem is the cost and that the voter has the correct delivery address. If you have those two things, fire away.”

Dzieduszycka-Suinat is familiar with ballot mailing costs via FedEx. FedEx once partnered with Overseas Vote, a U.S. Vote Foundation initiative, to provide military and overseas voters with FedEx Express shipping for their ballots.

Called the Express Your Vote program, it was used in the 2008 and 2012 general elections and is no longer active. In 2008, the service was free from countries in Asia and cost $23.50 from other countries, The Commercial Appeal reported then.

“We negotiated really good (shipping) rates, so we took down the over $100 rate down to about $20 per ballot,” she said. “I had to negotiate contracts with four different regions, because that’s how it works with FedEx.”

Could FedEx ease the US Postal Service's mail voting challenge? Shipping costs...

[Marco]

@Andrew0409

@11173

If it’s that easy for Lilith’s mum to vote on her behalf you should be able to see how easy it is to commit voting fraud on a large scale.

Seeing how about half the voting population don’t even vote, that’s a lot of empty ballots going out. It wouldn’t be that hard for a single person in a family to mail out a couple ballots with or without the others knowledge.

There’s no system in check to really prevent this besides saying it’s not allowed. Making something illegal isn’t very good at preventing that act in all criminology research I’ve looked at, what prevents it is the chance of being caught. I don’t see how we can catch anyone doing this.

@Andrew0409

Around half the voting population doesn’t vote. I assume most of them live with others in the same house. You don’t see how this can change the landscape in a large enough scale?

Not to mention we have to think about the legitimacy of a vote if say I’m 18 and my parent pressure me to vote for someone when I don’t want to or don’t care. I just vote for the person they pushed to me.

The privacy of the ballot booth is also important.

But you’re still talking about millions of households cheating one or two or three votes Some may cheat one party, some may cheat another. It’s not a really organised effort.

You’re not wrong, but it’s not really what people think of when they think voter fraud.

[Marco]

@Andrew0409

@Marco

That’s fine. It’s probably easy to cheat one or two. I just don’t think it’s easy to cheat one or two hundred million.

The margin of victory have been pretty close in some states. I think the fact that you “think” it wouldn’t be easy to cheat is enough to not do it. You don’t know.

It’s already questionable how legitimate elections are when half of the voting population doesn’t vote. Those going out in empty ballots brings up more questions.

@welcome

It’s easy for a lot of people to cheat one or two, or three … That might be all it takes in swing states.

They’re fair points. Not gonna lie. But it’s not really an organised effort to turn the election one way or another.

[Andrew0409]

@Marco

It’s not a really organised effort.

It’s about preserving the legitimacy and integrity of the election. Anything that brings that into question is bad. What is the acceptable threshold for cheating?

[Marco]

I don’t have an answer for that one. I’m sure there are people who have also impersonated others at the ballot box too. Should we throw out the baby with the bathwater if we don’t have 0%?

Washington Post suggests that the risk is extremely small.

Elections Canada reports historic turnout among international voters

Mail in voting is primarily done by International Canadians. I don’t really have much of a choice for my elections in Taiwan.

[11173]

Andrew, do you think it would be easy to mount an organised effort to swing an election by committing postal vote ballot fraud?

[bojack]

Well there you go. I was under the impression you couldn’t use FedEx etc., but if I’m wrong then I’m wrong.

However, this does not prevent a FedEx (or whatever) employee from not delivering ballots for their own reasons. It also doesn’t prevent an adult from filling in and mailing the ballots of others in their family. It’s also costly, and it will not prevent USPS fraud for ballots not mailed in via FedEx.

Nothing is as safe as voting in person, whether at the polling place or in early voting. There are never guarantees, of course, but I don’t think mailing in your ballot is the safest option.

[welcome]

@Marco

They’re fair points. Not gonna lie. But it’s not really an organised effort to turn the election one way or another.

I suggest it is already being organized by some groups.

It’s not difficult to see how this could be interpreted in a variety of different ways. Or how parents might pressure children to vote in a certain way.

[Marco]

@bojack

Well there you go. I was under the impression you couldn’t use FedEx etc., but if I’m wrong then I’m wrong.

However, this does not prevent a FedEx (or whatever) employee from not delivering ballots for their own reasons.

How would an employee even know what they’re doing? If I, an employee take out a ballot. How do I know which candidate I am hurting if I dont know what’s inside?

If my office sinisterly takes out an entire batch of votes, I still dont know what’s inside and I could be helping the one I am trying to hurt. Doesn’t really make sense.

[bojack]

@Marco

How would an employee even know what they’re doing? If I, an employee take out a ballot. How do I know which candidate I am hurting if I dont know what’s inside?

The address label.

[Marco]

?

What does the address label have to do with anything?