How is your Chinese?

Heck, as far as quality of life goes, being able to order a Number Whatever in McDonald’s, or figure out which kind of tea you want at your favorite tea house, is probably better than working in the Chinese booth at the UN. Besides, those guys are seriously BORED, you know!!

As for the “first burst of enthusiasm” – I’m not saying that is all students come in with, but if you damage the first enthusiasm a person has about learning something new, usually they do not put their heart into learning it and do not enjoy learning it, although they may stick with the course for whatever reason.

The basic thing is, IMHO, Western students are socialized and think of school in one way, while Chinese teachers were socialized and think about school in quite a different way. So teaching one with the methods of the other is always going to cause a certain degree of discomfort for somebody, if not both sides. I think Taiwanese students adapt more readily to the more “creative” oriented Western teaching methods than Western students do to the more “memorization” oriented Chinese traditional methods, although there are people who find the repetition and security of writing characters over and over, for example, comforting (and it can be).

Terry

quote:
Originally posted by R.T: I was originally convinced by former replies,but I happen to realize Chinese and English are two totally DIFFERENT language.they are from totally DIfferent world,land even culture.So the pronousiation is
Nice you noted that.

quote:

different,too.There are so MANY Chinese words that English can’t exactly pronouse.For instance,“food” in chinese,“laugh” in chinese!


Well, I think it is no great deal to say “food” or “laugh”, they are perfectly english words…

quote:

Think,why Japanese speak English poorly,because


Yes, think!

quote:

their language is only a sort of similar to English,so they are easily tend to learn English


Wow, now this new scientific theory will turn the whole linguistic world upside down…

quote:

pronouse weird.Still,I can’t deny some of Japanese can speak good English,but I believe they couldn’t use the Japanese spelling to learn English!

I’m not sure if you’re really reading the replies of other people. If, you should have noticed meanwhile that there is a difference between “English” as a language and the characters used to display it. I can speak English, I can write it and I can read it. But: I cannot write english characters. I’m a German, but I cannot write german characters. I can read them (if printed) and sometimes guess them (if handwriting), but I cannot write them. Why? Because what I use to write are latin characters. This set of latin characters is now applied by a lot of languages, not only the english one. I doubt many Taiwanese could read real english characters.
These characters (called “letters” in this case) symbolize a sound each, a phoneme. You can take a few phonemes and put them together to form a syllable and take one or a few syllables to form a word.
The japanese and the chinese spoken language are both based on syllables instead of phonemes, hence there is a smaller variety of sounds possible in these two languages compared to the number of combinations (no matter if meaningful or not) one can get with 26, 30 or more phonems - represented by the letters that make up English, German or another language.
If you would have learnt Japanese, you should have known that it is one of three languages which do not belong to any language family. To through it together with English displays a slight flippancy.
Yas, Japanese has a system (actually two) of characters which do only represent the syllables the language is composed of - without any meaning. But you will probably not forget that there are “Kanji” too and perhaps you will recognize then that Hiragana and Katakana serve the same purpose as Zhuyin in Chinese: To be a phonetic transcription of the language. One can learn those characters to read/write the pronounciation of Japanese/Chinese or rely on a transcription system that uses familiar (latin) characters. Hopefully, you will learn one day to distinct “written English”, “English characters” and “latin characters”. Latin characters are pronounced in a different way in each language - and so they are pronounced in different ways in transcription systems. “Sha” in Hepburn transcription (for Japanese) and “sha” in Pinyin (for Chinese) are pronounced slightly different although they look the same. But the “sha” you see there is no English at all, its a syllable consisting of three latin characters.
Now, why can’t you then use Zhuyin or Kana to learn English? If you read (and understood) the above, you shouldn’t ask any more. Zhuyin and Kana lack the flexibility necessary to produce (or display) all the sounds of English or another language. Hence, it will sound very strange, if one uses Zhuyin or Kana to learn English. I saw a system once with modified Kana to allow more phonetic varieties, but that was made by a Czech scientist with probably too much time. If you want to the flexibility do display a great variety of osunds, you need to go back to the level of single phonemes - the syllables of Chinese or Japanese will simply not be enough…

Olaf

RT, I really thought your argument would have come to an abrupt halt when Hexuan said something to the effect of:

Mainlanders seem to get by just fine with Pinyin.

Failing to learn Pinyin properly and then using an English pronounciation is obviously bad, but everyone agrees with you there.

It really doesn’t matter what symbology you use, and as a former poster mentioned, pictures of animals could well be used. What matters is whether or not you make the correct association between the symbols and the sounds.

Note that I am a strong proponent of Zhuyin Fuhao and personally avoid Pinyin like the plague. This is a personal choice, Pinyin is not inherently wrong, I just don’t care for it much.

However, despite exclusive use of Zhuyin Fuhao throughout my study I still have an Westerner’s accent and probably always will have. Don’t confuse accent with some imagined flaw in the Pinyin system.

Zhuyin and Pinyin, from a logical point of view are identical. One can be transcribed into the other using a table (or computer), no linguistic experience is needed. You can reverse the process and end up with the same text as you start with. There is no abiguity as there might be translating from Chinese->English->Chinese.

As many have commented, it is just a way to represent the sounds. How well you render the text as speech depends on your skill, but a native speaker who understood the symbols would not have a problem.

The real issue with Zhuyin and Pinyin seems to be one of practicality (and politics). I know and use both since I live in Taiwan:

Pinyin is great for computers, I can touch type in English, therefore I can touch type in Chinese (as long as I know the characters!) Actually quite a few native speakers at my work use Pinyin for computer entry.

Pinyin is used in Chinese education everywhere except Taiwan, so most Chinese learning material uses Pinyin.

Pinyin can be transcribed by most foreigners, even if they cannot render it as speech. My mum can write my address legibly in roman characters, but not using Chinese ones. Foreigners can also compare words, even when they do not know the meaning, street names for example. It is harder in Zhuyin without training.

Pinyin is useful in Mainland China or on Mainland chat boards if you don’t use characters, yet want to communicate (The strong romanization system of Japanese is also used to advantage in this way by Japanese)

Zhuyin is useful for reading Taiwan children’s books, a good way to practice reading. It is also useful for reading Taiwanese educational material.

Taiwanese poeple can tell you the correct pronunciation of words to you if you know how the system works.

Zhuyin can be mixed with Chinese characters more easily than Pinyin, and with better asthetic effect.

Zhuyin can be written with a brush (should you care).

Pinyin’s great weakness is that the accent marks, critical for correct tone, are not always transcribed (Beijing street signs have this problem!)

For my opinion though, I see little value in Zhuyin. It is just another system you have to learn in a language plagued by complexity in the writing system (two sets of characters, three romanization systems, many computer input methods, Zhuyin etc.) Linguistics and writing are made easier by having fewer alphabets. Imagine for instance how much harder it would be to learn French (if you spoke Spanish) if you had to start by learning a new writing system.

Don’t forget though, neither Zhuyin nor Pinyin are commonly used as writing systems in the Chinese speaking world. They are only aids to education and pronunciation. To achive a high standard of Chinese literacy, and appreciation for Chinese culture, you must learn characters.