Hi! I’m thinking heavily on going to Taiwan next year to study Chinese and started wondering about this when I started watching a Taiwanese Drama.
Many of the actors seem replace just them. Some don’t. I was just wondering how common this is, and if it depends on hometown, level of education or anything else. I assume that it’s mainly the speakers of Taiwanese who learn Mandarin as their second language that do this. Is this right? I’ll probably go to Taichung or Kaohsiung if I choose Taiwan (climate ). Beijing is the third option I’m considering.
I get that it’s not a matter of there being any difficulties to understand it, but of course I’d like it better if they spoke more standard, since I’ll probably start doing it myself if I hear it a lot. Wouldn’t be a deal breaker if it’s very common, just a small minus, so don’t try and make it seem better than it is, please!
It’s also much more prevalent in the south. Actually, anywhere outside of Taipei. If you go to Gaoxiong probably the only people you will ever hear using sh, ch and zh will be university professors or newsreaders.
One example that sticks out for me is telling a cab driver I want go to Taipei - Min Sheng East Road. If you don’t bastardize it fully you will 100% of the time end up on Min Quan East Road <-- this I cannot explain. The SH and the G go away and need to say “sen”. My Taiwanese colleague didn’t believe me until I tested it out with her one day.
Seems to me in Taipei the “sh” is most reliably lost, “zh” and “ch” less so. Not sure of any pattern. To my ears, “重慶南路” is “congqing nan lu.” “變成” biancheng." “中正” is “zhongzeng.”
I think this is not something you should be thinking about. First of all, the number of people speaking Mandarin as a second language is sharply in decline at least among people under say 50 and outside the working class. Most people just soften their zhis and chis but they are still there.
Educated people and almost all young people speak a version of standard southern Mandarin that you hear all over China. It’s not just the Taiwanese who soften these sounds.
It’s really not an issue and if you end up spending time in northern China, you will quickly adapt to their accent. It’s like worrying you will end up speaking American English instead of UK English if you study in the US.
That would be kóo-ì 古意 in Tailo. The way full on Taiwanese accent of pronouncing guo2-yü3 國語 is gôo-ì.
Anyway, losing sh but softening ch zh sound like a more accurate statement. Even sh is not always lost. For example, people rarely say Lao3-Si to refer to a teacher, but instead say a softened version of Lao3-Shi. This is even true for the Ming-Sheng Dong Lu example. Sheng 生 and Seng 僧 will sound slightly different.
That being said, eng is almost completely lost and merged into en. I pronounce Sheng 生 and Shen 森 slightly different, but seriously it is barely noticeable.
Alright. Are those people specially trained or something?
Even if I’m a foreigner?
So they don’t lose their Xs, Qs and Js? I know that they’re not the exact same sound as Sh, Ch and Zh but it feels like they’re similar enough for them to be lost as well.
[quote=“Feiren”]I think this is not something you should be thinking about. First of all, the number of people speaking Mandarin as a second language is sharply in decline at least among people under say 50 and outside the working class. Most people just soften their zhis and chis but they are still there.
Educated people and almost all young people speak a version of standard southern Mandarin that you hear all over China. It’s not just the Taiwanese who soften these sounds.
It’s really not an issue and if you end up spending time in northern China, you will quickly adapt to their accent. It’s like worrying you will end up speaking American English instead of UK English if you study in the US.[/quote]
Nah, I know I shouldn’t be thinking about it a lot. The analogy with English is probably correct but I can’t deny that there are English dialects I’d more like to speak than others. But it’s not a big issue for me, I actually don’t particularly like these sounds, it’s more a small preference of speaking standard.
That would be kóo-ì 古意 in Tailo. The way full on Taiwanese accent of pronouncing guo2-yü3 國語 is gôo-ì.
Anyway, losing sh but softening ch zh sound like a more accurate statement. Even sh is not always lost. For example, people rarely say Lao3-Si to refer to a teacher, but instead say a softened version of Lao3-Shi. This is even true for the Ming-Sheng Dong Lu example. Sheng 生 and Seng 僧 will sound slightly different.
That being said, eng is almost completely lost and merged into en. I pronounce Sheng 生 and Shen 森 slightly different, but seriously it is barely noticeable.[/quote]
Crap! That sounds like a hell to learn! My goal is to speak with as small of an accent as possible. Maybe it sounds impossible but I definitely think it’s possible to speak nearly without accent if you pay enough attention and put effort into it, but the lack of clear consistency will make that a whole lot harder!
No, if you lost those what would be left? Sh ch and zh morph into x q and z. J’s aren’t as clearly pronounced as on the mainland if I’m not wrong and can be pretty close to 'l" (which is analogous to how such words are usually pronounced in Minnan.)
[quote=“Tempo Gain”][quote=“Sko”]
So they don’t lose their Xs, Qs and Js? I know that they’re not the exact same sound as Sh, Ch and Zh but it feels like they’re similar enough for them to be lost as well.
[/quote]
No, if you lost those what would be left? Sh ch and zh morph into x q and z. J’s aren’t as clearly pronounced as on the mainland if I’m not wrong and can be pretty close to 'l" (which is analogous to how such words are usually pronounced in Minnan.)[/quote]
o.O So, Sh and Ch don’t become S and C respectively? That’s how I thought it was.
Don’t forget the hypercorrected guise you hear frequently among salespeople…replacing /s/ with /sh/ and so forth.
Just stirring the pot. I did my dissertation on native speaker perceptions of foreigners speaking with these accents (Taiwan Guoyu, “Mainland” and hypercorrected), actually.
It’s the same as in the west. Professors and newsreaders will have a better, more neutral pronunciation in addition to using correct grammar.
My Chinese is awful but I definitely notice the missing ‘sh’ from my students in Kaohsiung.[/quote]
I’m not very familiar with people with certain professions using a more standardized language, other than that they don’t use slang. Here in Sweden they can speak whichever dialect they want, for quite a few years there was even a Norwegian weather girl, in the beginning she basically spoke Norwegian with Swedish words.
). Beijing is the third option I’m considering.
Sh ch and zh morph into x q and z. J’s aren’t as clearly pronounced as on the mainland if I’m not wrong and can be pretty close to 'l" (which is analogous to how such words are usually pronounced in Minnan.)
Sh ch and zh morph into x q and z. J’s aren’t as clearly pronounced as on the mainland if I’m not wrong and can be pretty close to 'l" (which is analogous to how such words are usually pronounced in Minnan.)[/quote]