ac_dropout,
It is clear that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. Why not just shut up?
Brian
ac_dropout:
You really don’t know what you are talking about, do you?
Ever heard of insider trading?
Shall I tell you the story of the world’s most expensive mass transit line (Mucha) and why it was so expensive? But I am sure you are already blaming the Greens or American influence.
Thanks for all the replies so far, but does anyone have anything specific on Soong and LC? Am I right in thinking thet have basically been public sector employees for the majority of their careers?
LC definitely made his money through kick backs from land scams.
All I remember about Lian Zhan is how his daughter owned a certain type of land which can only be owned by the people actually farming it. She was 4 years old at the time, feisty little thing.
Brian
Fox,
First off that’s called normal business practice. Buy low sell high, leverage assests at the best rate, negotiating better terms, networking, keeping up to date on current events etc.
Now to suggest insider trading means that the was a government body watching for these type of relationships and deeming them illegal.
But let’s say all allegations are true. Did the development of these agricultural lands help enrich other people outside the KMT. Lawyers, funiture makers, plumbers, etc.
Would it have been better to leave the land as farm land as in the Japanese colonial days.
I always thought the first rule of capitalism is not to do anything unless it is self-enriching. I surprise that many on this board don’t advocate the same.
But the point being these guy were already rich to begin with if we are suggesting they could get large bank loans, or start up a construction company, or develop relationship with officials to rezone land, or even buy large parcels of land through leveraging.
It not like the KMT coined the phrase “robber barons.”
LC: You are correct. Both Lien and Soong have worked as public servants for all of their working lives. Chen was a private lawyer for a long time, but lawyers generally don’t make that much money in Taiwan.
My wife tells me that a degree of kickbacks (about 2%) is not just an accepted practise in Taiwan, but more or less mandatory. To refuse to accept it is to endanger your life. But some people venture into the worlds of corruption by demanding more - much more.
Soong was general secretary of the KMT at the time of the Lafayette frigate scandal. The ships cost twice as much as what Singapore paid for them around the same time. Beyond the murders to silence those who threatened to speak, there were enourmous kickbacks.
Roland Dumas, the French politician in charge of approving the sale, testified that the French gave a $400 million US kickback to the secretary general of the ruling party. Some have claimed that this is a mistranslation - looking at the original French I dont think so. At any rate, if it happened this way Soong would have been the bagman for the mother of all kickbacks.
To be fair, if it did happen this way he was simply acting under orders from the saint of Taiwanese independence, the man who transformed corruption from a fact of life into the glue that held the party together, Lee Deng-Hui. But it does speak to a scale of corruption that Chen Shui-Bian doesn’t even rate as a piker on.
Bu:
And then that land was rezoned, if I recall, and the price skyrocketed.
Perhaps Lien should be brought up on charges of employing child labor.
Attention mods:
Please rein in Ac dropout from doing his normal thread hijacking hijinks. You can take this thread out too as I will attempt and probably will successfully skewer the bastard.
Let’s start with his last 3 posts:
[quote]You have been citing books that are 50 years old. These aren’t even the times when new people could have generated wealth. You want me to read a paper 6 years after the Japanese hand over.
I already know who the rich people are. The historically weathly Chinese from the mainland and the historically weathly Chinese under Japanese rule.
It not like there was “new wealth” in society making noveau riche people in 1951 on Taiwan.[/quote]
You’re grasping to try and dispel a very good argument that deals with the topic of this thread. Maowang showed that their was in fact a lot of material wealth in Taiwan and it was systematically looted by the KMT.
Red herring. We are talking about the entire period of KMT rule in Taiwan otherwise the heading would only mention what you say it does. Don’t pigeonhole the debate. I could add more, butt will wait for you to come back on topic.
[quote]The reason why I have never cared to talk about Kerr’s report was that shortly after reading it became obvious it was not a serious study of the situation. It is a Japanophile rants. It doesn’t talk about the money making scheme or exposes any of Chen Yi crime, just a bunch of hearsay and observations as an outsiders.
What’s there to say about Chen Yi. When things settled down, CKS had him shot.
Would die hard TI supporters also want to claim Chen Yi as a victim of 228 and white terror as well?[/quote]
Chen Yi wasn’t Taiwanese. Chen Yi was a brutal governor who went about pillaging a society use to the rule of law. He also asked for time to parlay while calling in troops to kill Taiwanese protesting the treatment they received by his corrupt policies, gov’t. and troops. CKS had him shot for suspected collusion with the communists, not for his actions in Taiwan.
:loco: We aren’t talking about normal business practice here though. We are talking about Gov’t officials(KMT) using inside knowledge or influence to buy land cheap then see it or have it rezoned and selling it for a huge profit.
The KMT was a government body and the government was the KMT. You didn’t get to participate without membership. Why would they deem their own activities illegal, just like having a fox watch a henhouse.
Why not just rezone the land and let the original owners benefit from their ownership rather than getting them to sell, which I’m sure was accompanied by some coercion. It’s like I come to your place in New York have a couple of my guys hang you over a pit of starving pigs and ask you kindly if you want to release all your possessions cheaply to me. You might not relent till we let the pigs chew on a calf for a couple seconds, but you will accept after the pigs have persuaded you. I thewn take you possessions and make more money off them than you ever would.
It would of been better to rezone it and this question is a RED HERRING!
You know about as much about capitalism as I would expect any commie pinko to know. Capitalism only exists in areas with a rule of law. The rule of law doesn’t necessarily need to be written down, just accepted by all interested parties. What the KMT (the guys mentioned in the title of this thread, don’t forget, this isn’t about the DPP) did was pillage and plunder.
This is such BS. The point is: land was bought at ridiculously low prices and flipped. At the time, you couldn’t get bank loans without political connections and indebting your family forever to the person who helped you get the loan. Then you go backwards with regards to the underlined part. You want to only discuss the 70’s and 80’s when they are already rich, thereby freeing you to avoid facing the facts of how they got their money during the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s. You can’t have it both ways.
:offtopic:
You need to stay on topic and stop hijacking threads. You know what you’re doing.
CYA
Okami
Thank You Okami… I will try to write something a little more substantial tomorrow or later next week. I appreciate the handling of AC, for he makes people lose interest in this forum and disrupts the ability of our community to discuss and disseminate ideas that may benefit the whole community. His constant interruption does a dis-service to the intellectual people in our community who take their own time to freely express themselves and their ideas, open to criticism, at the mercy of total strangers.
Yes, and yes to Okami’s similar comments above.
It really annoys me when there is a good discussion with people genuinely interested asking questions, and people who know what they’re talking sharing their knowledge, and then ac_drivel buts in and fills a thread with ill-informed irrelevant nonsense, people get pissed off at his drivel and soon 9 out of ten posts are this overposting idiots bullshit, and outraged repsonse.
Moderator, please flame or flounder this post when you do the same to ac’s.
brian
Okami,
He is using a misleading concept of wealth. He sighting some factories and government waterworks infrastructure. Which can be questioned at what state they were in the 1946.
Even if looted to the mainland. Does it automatically mean the KMT got the wealth liquidated. Since in effect they lost the war on the Mainland.
He needs to cite how this translate to individual wealth and ability to aquire land.
It would be like me citing Iraq has material wealth, without citing how that oil wealth actually become liquid assets and ends up in my account. Not to mention how many other people are making money on this process.
But if you citing Kerr, Chen Yi takes up a good 1/3 to 1/2 of his book. He is central to Kerr’s argument that the KMT looted Taiwan.
However, where’s the connection to the modern leaders of pan-Blue side from Chen Yi.
So then we start citing real estate deals. About zoning and rezoning. About real estate speculation. At some point the land has to leave KMT hands to make a profit. Assuming the KMT could buy the property artificially low. The question than becomes how was the larger Taiwan economy stimulated, that people would actually agree to higher fair market price of the rezoned land.
If that cannot be explained, then the economic theory is unproven. It’s not like the KMT can force me to buy land or make me perceive inflated value when there is no value to begin with.
All I ask if for are specific details, not vague generalizations. Names, land, dates, financials, overall Taiwan economy at the time etc.
Actually Manhattan Island was originally bought for with a few beads from the Native Americans. Was this a case of corruption and taking advantage of ignorant landowners as well?
It is not, the motivation is very important in these hypothetical cases. Was it only for profit or did greater society benefit as well as a few officials.
But where was the original capital for the first few land flips coming from. I proposed they were historically rich families to begin with their individual wealth transferred from the mainland during their exodus.
It not like every KMT member became rich.
It is only to see how both groups behave in the 70’s and 80’s when both groups have money. If both groups behave the same when they have money, to do unethical land development deals, then something else is missing from the discussion, since both groups exhibit the same behavior.
In pre-1970’s only one group had wealth, which I forwarded as my hypothesis already, so only one group has the opportunity to leverage that wealth. The question than becomes to what degree of unethical behavior did they exhibit, if at all, given the fact by the 1970’s the general public also had enough wealth to do real estate speculation.
Okay let’s focus on a specific family and individuals, since this thread is getting vague and abstract about corruption.
Lien Chan (連戰) - It seems his fortunes are historical wealth.
Lien Chen-tung (連震東) - He’s Lien Chan (連戰) dad. He’s just another BSR that joined the KMT. Was he just another run of the mill businessman that joined the KMT, or was he the Donald Trump of real estate of his time?
Lien Heng (連橫) - He’s Lien Chen-tung (連震東) dad. He wrote The General History of Taiwan (台灣通史), one of my favorite books. Was he a poor writer, or someone with some money so he could spend his time writing?
There are speculation of Allen Soong (宋鎮遠), son of PFP Chairman James Soong (宋楚瑜), buying 5 houses in the USA using questionable family fortunes. Black Gold or the most recent sucker to the “No Money Down” real estate business scheme?
CSB bought a Jaguar for their son’s graduation. Black Gold or sucker for the “get a hand job from a stranger” Jaguar marketing
I dont think Trump stole land to accumulate wealth.
AWOL,
But Trump has file for bankruptcy more than once thus far and also has some questionable business dealing for his Casinos in Atlantic City.
To business laymen doesn’t it seem kind of odd for a person value in the hundreds of millions USD to declare bankruptcy more than once in lifetime.
To experience businessmen Trump has screw over his creditors, investors, and business suppliers once again.
Has Trump been taking advantage of his celebrity status once agian in business dealings to start questionable ventures?
[quote=“ac_dropout”]AWOL,
But Trump has file for bankruptcy more than once thus far and also has some questionable business dealing for his Casinos in Atlantic City.
To business laymen doesn’t it seem kind of odd for a person value in the hundreds of millions USD to declare bankruptcy more than once in lifetime.
To experience businessmen Trump has screw over his creditors, investors, and business suppliers once again.
Has Trump been taking advantage of his celebrity status once agian in business dealings to start questionable ventures?[/quote]
Thanks for another lesson in the blindingly obvious. Shame you (not suprisingly) sidestepped the issue at hand.
Nice try Okami, but this (
) is the silver bullet you’re looking for.
Don’t worry half the people on forumosa find it difficult to debate me. You won’t be the first.
Anyways basically after 3 days. People only have speculations…yawn.
Well, AC is ignored from now on.
Mr He,
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.