How taiwanese people regard/regarded themselves

[KeithZhao]

@beebee

All these surveys or polls conducted are just contemporary. Nothing is permanent.

[quote]I belong to one of the smaller minorities of Taiwanese. I’m an Atlantic islander, one of the ancient tribe of Adouzai (阿逗仔) people, who migrated here via Japan’s southern islands in the 1980s. I have no Chinese ancestry at all that I’m aware of.

We’ve integrated quite well into this society, though we’re still treated as outsiders by many who migrated here, or whose ancestors migrated here, earlier than we did.

I’ve married a native islander whose roots in Taiwan can be traced back several hundred years earlier than mine. Neither of us considers ourselves to be Zhongguoren or in any way part of the PRC and its occupied territories.

I hope that clarifies things for you nicely, Keith.[/quote]

Thanks, Omniloquacious. I appreciate your reply and respect your opinion.Actually, people around China, especailly who never been to abroad(me either) would think the majority taiwanese people dont regard themselves as Chinese, but they(actually we) think that is caused by DPP’gov’s propaganda, of course, we think so , only because our propaganda

[KeithZhao]

Can some old taiwanese people read/speak japanese?

[quote=“ac_dropout”]If only ROC won the mainland and was not USA ally, I think the question would have been put to rest long ago.

I think HK are hyper nationalistic to the terms of Chinese in comparison to mainland and Taiwan counterparts. Could be a result of the fact that the previous colonizers were not Chinese. Although there is an adversion to non-Cantonese or HK Cantonese speakers, there is no movement to declare themselves non-Chinese.

Could be the a factor that the Cantonese in the region in have immigrated to many different States and see no threat to their Tang culture.

On Taiwan there is almost no pride in being Chinese. It was a liability under Japanese rule. It is a liability under Green rule. Minnan speakers on Taiwan are hyper-patroitic to the point that if another Minnan speaker has dual citizenship, they are not considered Taiwanese.

Of course this issue is not easily resolved since the government under Green leadership has been pushing the Taiwanese-Chinese survey every year.[/quote]

[wisher]

"Can some old Taiwanese people read/speak japanese? "
They can.And they lived like an Japanese.
When I went to Japan the old people reminded me of my grandpa and uncles.

[Belgian_Pie]

Yes, many do speak Japanese and Taiwanese, but no mandarin …

[ac_dropout]

But they are a minority like the contemporary Taiwanese that are fluent in English and live like Westerners. And they too speak very little Mandarin as well.

The reality of Taiwanese is that they will be opportunitist. The next opportunity is on the mainland.

So those that wax about the “good ole days” under the sphere of influence of Japan or the USA will be in the minority in the future.

There is no nationality of Taiwanese in terms of State citizenship. That’s what Green people wish they had.
There is a sub-ethnic group of Taiwanese, but it does not include descendents from Nanjing or aboriginals on Taiwan.

[TaipeiDawg]

[quote=“ac_dropout”]On Taiwan there is almost no pride in being Chinese. It was a liability under Japanese rule. It is a liability under Green rule. Minnan speakers on Taiwan are hyper-patroitic to the point that if another Minnan speaker has dual citizenship, they are not considered Taiwanese.
Of course this issue is not easily resolved since the government under Green leadership has been pushing the Taiwanese-Chinese survey every year.[/quote] I don’t agree with this statement at all. I have met many, many people in Taiwan who are quite proud of Chinese culture and consider themselves a part of it (although they may consider Taiwan a unique subset of it). These people may consider themselves Chinese in terms of race and culture, but identify with Taiwan in terms of national identity in the same way that African-Americans or Italian-Americans consider themselves to be American even though their ancestors had come from elsewhere.
And I also think that the Taiwanese-Chinese survey is something that legitimately points out the difference between race and national identity. Unfortunately, the term “Chinese” is used as a ‘catch all’ to mean people of Chinese ancestry as well as citizens of the PRC.

[Belgian_Pie]

You wish AC … you wish

[KeithZhao]

[quote=“ac_dropout”]But they are a minority like the contemporary Taiwanese that are fluent in English and live like Westerners. And they too speak very little Mandarin as well.

The reality of Taiwanese is that they will be opportunitist. The next opportunity is on the mainland.

So those that wax about the “good ole days” under the sphere of influence of Japan or the USA will be in the minority in the future.

There is no nationality of Taiwanese in terms of State citizenship. That’s what Green people wish they had.
There is a sub-ethnic group of Taiwanese, but it does not include descendents from Nanjing or aboriginals on Taiwan.[/quote]

So do you mean green people and green supporter are minority(relatively) of taiwan masses? BUt this doesnt make sense, if so , why Mr got elected , twice straightly?

Yeah, I read some articles about how taiwanese people see their lives under japanese colonial period…

Actually qingdao was shortly-occupied by japan… my grandma was a kid at that time, she told me, the japanese soliders are polite and always gave her and her peers candy stuff, while when KMT solider came, they are sort of rude… in the end , my party came, all land of her father were taken away hahha, of course, thats the all-known history after that…

[KeithZhao]

Exactly, maybe limited by my educational background, I always regard taiwanese people as Chinese(not 中国人， I mean 华人, different ,huh?), persoanlly I dont care how many Chinese countries in the world (I already got 2 ,right?), I just hope Taiwanese people would regard themselves as Chinesee… I respect their personal opinion or opinion as a group anyway.

[quote=“TaipeiDawg”][quote=“ac_dropout”]On Taiwan there is almost no pride in being Chinese. It was a liability under Japanese rule. It is a liability under Green rule. Minnan speakers on Taiwan are hyper-patroitic to the point that if another Minnan speaker has dual citizenship, they are not considered Taiwanese.
Of course this issue is not easily resolved since the government under Green leadership has been pushing the Taiwanese-Chinese survey every year.[/quote] I don’t agree with this statement at all. I have met many, many people in Taiwan who are quite proud of Chinese culture and consider themselves a part of it (although they may consider Taiwan a unique subset of it). These people may consider themselves Chinese in terms of race and culture, but identify with Taiwan in terms of national identity in the same way that African-Americans or Italian-Americans consider themselves to be American even though their ancestors had come from elsewhere.
And I also think that the Taiwanese-Chinese survey is something that legitimately points out the difference between race and national identity. Unfortunately, the term “Chinese” is used as a ‘catch all’ to mean people of Chinese ancestry as well as citizens of the PRC.[/quote]

[ac_dropout]

[quote=“TaipeiDawg”][quote=“ac_dropout”]On Taiwan there is almost no pride in being Chinese. It was a liability under Japanese rule. It is a liability under Green rule. Minnan speakers on Taiwan are hyper-patroitic to the point that if another Minnan speaker has dual citizenship, they are not considered Taiwanese.
Of course this issue is not easily resolved since the government under Green leadership has been pushing the Taiwanese-Chinese survey every year.[/quote] I don’t agree with this statement at all. I have met many, many people in Taiwan who are quite proud of Chinese culture and consider themselves a part of it (although they may consider Taiwan a unique subset of it). These people may consider themselves Chinese in terms of race and culture, but identify with Taiwan in terms of national identity in the same way that African-Americans or Italian-Americans consider themselves to be American even though their ancestors had come from elsewhere.
And I also think that the Taiwanese-Chinese survey is something that legitimately points out the difference between race and national identity. Unfortunately, the term “Chinese” is used as a ‘catch all’ to mean people of Chinese ancestry as well as citizens of the PRC.[/quote]
But the essence of the survey is the set up a mutually exclusive identity of Taiwanese and Chinese.

Well Americans have also have a gradient of authentic Americans as well. Presented an image of Middle Easterner with a turban to be accepted as an American. Asians are also marginalized as authentic Americans.

It is so sad that the Chinese group contains so many ethnic groups. Hoklo, Hakka, Aboriginal, etc. To think they could have been more successful than America at the melting pot concept.

[ac_dropout]

So do you mean green people and green supporter are minority(relatively) of Taiwan masses? BUt this doesnt make sense, if so , why Mr got elected , twice straightly?

I never argued that. Hoklo, the people that claim to be the “real” Taiwanese, are the majority group on Taiwan.

The Daiwanlang on Taiwan don’t ever want an individual from the minorities groups to every become president. Even Daiwanlang in the KMT voiced that opinion already as well.

You know it’s like the racial extremism in the USA which requires a minority member seeking the presidency secret service protection a year and 1/2 before the actual election.

[TaipeiDawg]

[quote=“ac_dropout”]But they are a minority like the contemporary Taiwanese that are fluent in English and live like Westerners. And they too speak very little Mandarin as well.[/quote] What?? :loco: When was the last time you were actually in Taiwan??

[quote=“ac_dropout”]The reality of Taiwanese is that they will be opportunitist. The next opportunity is on the mainland. So those that wax about the “good ole days” under the sphere of influence of Japan or the USA will be in the minority in the future.[/quote] People who recall the “good old days” are no different than you who seems to be forever stuck in the “bad old days” of 30+ years ago in the martial law era when you were discriminated against by Taiwanese. If the next opportunity for Taiwan is with the Mainland then the people of Taiwan will decide when and how to take advantage of it. It’s not like Taiwan must disengage from one to embrace the other.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]There is no nationality of Taiwanese in terms of State citizenship. That’s what Green people wish they had.There is a sub-ethnic group of Taiwanese, but it does not include descendents from Nanjing or aboriginals on Taiwan.[/quote] Once again you cling to an outdated stereotype of ‘Greens’ as being discriminatory “Hoklo Exteremists” and “TI’ers”. Despite your rhetoric, all the BSR, WSR, and aboriginals carry the same little green passport and get along with each other quite well on a day to day basis. You have no clue about Taiwan society today.

[Belgian_Pie]

[quote=“KeithZhao”]
So do you mean green people and green supporter are minority(relatively) of Taiwan masses? BUt this doesnt make sense, if so , why Mr got elected , twice straightly?

Yeah, I read some articles about how Taiwanese people see their lives under japanese colonial period…

Actually qingdao was shortly-occupied by japan… my grandma was a kid at that time, she told me, the japanese soliders are polite and always gave her and her peers candy stuff, while when KMT solider came, they are sort of rude… in the end , my party came, all land of her father were taken away hahha, of course, thats the all-known history after that…[/quote]

Right, it doesn’t make sense, nothing does in Taiwan … really

Don’t forget the Germans, that’s why Qingdao is still known at present … the beer, a left over from German colonial times.

KMT soldiers … well, they were rude even when they came to Taiwan, the KMT still actually is , they can’t let go of the power position feeling …

In the end it’s all about power hunger, no matter where you go … even in the west … but then, we westerners deal in another way with coming to power, we spend lot’s of money to get there. In other countries, people get killed over it, human rights neglected.

[TaipeiDawg]

[quote=“KeithZhao”]Yeah, I read some articles about how Taiwanese people see their lives under japanese colonial period… Actually qingdao was shortly-occupied by japan… my grandma was a kid at that time, she told me, the japanese soliders are polite and always gave her and her peers candy stuff, while when KMT solider came, they are sort of rude… in the end , my party came, all land of her father were taken away hahha, of course, thats the all-known history after that…[/quote] I was just talking to a Taiwanese friend last Thurday night and he said his grandmother often told him that social order was much better under the Japanese police - the criminals were actually afraid of them, whereas the police were corrupt under the KMT. He pointed out that even now in Taipei you can see the police eating and drinking with criminals (gangs of debt collectors known as ‘tao zai’(sp?)).

[TaipeiDawg]

[quote=“Belgian Pie”]Don’t forget the Germans, that’s why Qingdao is still known at present … the beer, a left over from German colonial times.[/quote] YES, TsingTao beer is excellent!! Now, they make a locally licensed version in PingDong - but it just doesn’t compare to the real thingl! In fact, last time I was in Shanghai I bought some TsingTao beer but it was terrible. Then I found out it was actually brewed in Shanghai… Must be the water in QingDao!!

[kate.lin]

back to the topic

Honestly speaking,

Everytime I face Taiwanese politic turmoil, I am always in a confusion of whether I am Chinese or Taiwanese.

Everytime I talk to Chinese mainlanders, I always have the clear ideas that I am Taiwanese from an independent country.

It is a trouble I have now, too young to have solid nationality identity.

[Belgian_Pie]

Yes, identity crisis … the same goes for the beer … Tsingtao brewed in Taiwan doesn’t know it’s Tsingtao, even the Shanghai one doesn’t know …

… because the water is different BTW, Qingdao has it’s own well (source) that’s slightly salty …

Ok, back to topic now …

[KeithZhao]

@TaipeiDawg

[quote=“Belgian Pie”]Don’t forget the Germans, that’s why Qingdao is still known at present … the beer, a left over from German colonial times.[/quote] YES, TsingTao beer is excellent!! Now, they make a locally licensed version in PingDong - but it just doesn’t compare to the real thingl! In fact, last time I was in Shanghai I bought some TsingTao beer but it was terrible. Then I found out it was actually brewed in Shanghai… Must be the water in QingDao!!

True, man, they are different in different area even they are the same brand name .
Usually the beer my hometown was produced with some spring in moutain…maybe thats the difference, who knows… anyway, glad to say you enjoy it.

[quote]Everytime I face Taiwanese politic turmoil, I am always in a confusion of whether I am Chinese or Taiwanese.

Everytime I talk to Chinese mainlanders, I always have the clear ideas that I am Taiwanese from an independent country.

It is a trouble I have now, too young to have solid nationality identity[/quote]

Kate, maybe you represent many Taiwanese’s opinion… could you give any details about the bold part? you mean, the way of thinking or the perception to things?

[KeithZhao]

@Belgian Pie

Don’t forget the Germans, that’s why Qingdao is still known at present … the beer, a left over from German colonial times.

Yeah…sort of. you know , German guys leave better reputation than japs among our local folks…even though they were all evil invaders in our text-book.

[KeithZhao]

Sigh…even myself got drag away from my topic

come on , guys, topic!