How to argue with a global warming "skeptic"

[quote=“BrentGolf”][quote]But then should we retire from the field and let the retards dominate the information byways? Should we stand back and let morons, ideologues, cynical manipulators and fools blather on as they will, papering the Internet with their bullshit? Obscuring the issue with their crap?

I think not.[/quote]

After a certain point, yes. As I said back near the beginning, when dealing with morons who will never change their mind no matter what evidence comes forth the victory comes through public opinion. Trust me, reading through these threads makes it perfectly crystal clear who’s on the intelligent side of this debate. So much so that I am finding it nearly impossible to read anything from Jotham and Fred in any other threads on any other topics without outright laughing.

You can’t reason people out of what they were not reasoned into. Evidence, proof, and a mountain of peer reviewed papers won’t do a thing vs these guys. All that can be done is give them a platform for debate to get them to articulate their ignorant opinions and basically have them out themselves…[/quote]

BG, I agree and have totally given up on changing any minds with the hardcore deniers. But as BJ said, you can’t let them “dominate the field”. There may be fence-sitters reading this stuff, and it is they to whom I’m mainly speaking. But also, as I said in the very first post of this thread, trying to address denialist criticisms is like playing whack-a-mole. Trust me… I know - I’ve played the same game on a pretty wide variety of topics where one runs across denialists and conspiracy theorists. It’s a tiring and fruitless effort - BUT if you really want to be motivated to educate yourself thoroughly about a topic, it does have that benefit.

I totally agree. I was pretty well versed on the subject before, but this debate has really increased my knowledge considerably. Regardless of how many deniers minds were changed ( and even if they have changed their mind they won’t say it publically ) you guys certainly came together and put forth a tremendous amount of actual evidence and links to actual peer reviewed scientific work. You’re correct that you need deniers to bring that forth and debates like this have to take place but it reaches a certain point where everything that can be said gets said, and anybody who still denies the science is simply dismissed.

Good work guys ! Now if only a young earth creationist would start yapping we could really have some fun :slight_smile:

I totally agree. I was pretty well versed on the subject before, but this debate has really increased my knowledge considerably. Regardless of how many deniers minds were changed ( and even if they have changed their mind they won’t say it publically ) you guys certainly came together and put forth a tremendous amount of actual evidence and links to actual peer reviewed scientific work. You’re correct that you need deniers to bring that forth and debates like this have to take place but it reaches a certain point where everything that can be said gets said, and anybody who still denies the science is simply dismissed.

Good work guys ! Now if only a young earth creationist would start yapping we could really have some fun :slight_smile:[/quote]

Oh man I used to do that kind of stuff, but these days I draw the line at debating evolution deniers, anti-vaccine advocates or 911 Truthers. The level of emotional investment is so high (and the level of discourse so low) that you might as well glue your palm to your forehead, cuz that’s where it’s gonna be throughout the argument, anyway.

IMO, there is a huge difference between people who deny Evolution and people who deny the official government story surrounding the events on 9/11. Maybe we should crack open a 9/11 thread? :laughing: ( or maybe there already is one, I didn’t check )

A number of peer-reviewed scientists are downright hostile to the current consensus.

A few thoughts for Brent, when we discuss 911 and evolution, we have a testing environment that allows us to examine all variables (or most) and with this limited set of information construct to a very strong degree the likelihood of something happening. Do you really think that it is the same for the climate change debate? And for all of Vay’s “sources,” it is truly amazing isn’t it? that he can find one to prove every predictable occurrence as having been, er, predicted? When the Economist weighs in and admits that the predictions have not been accurate and will soon fall out of the very lowest range of temperature predictions, what can we conclude?

  1. The Economist is not a climate scientist and has no ability to weigh in on the debate despite the fact that many read its in-depth reports by journalists dedicated to oil, politics, economics, conflict, international relations? precisely because they admire the Economist for its rigor, quality analysis and ability to report on complex sets of circumstances?
  2. The Economist has been bought out by evil oil and gas and coal interests?
  3. The Economist is wrong to take climate scientists at their predictions because scientists have always told us all along that there would be wide variables and that the climate is not so easily predicted? If this is the case, then… well, isn’t the Economist hedging its bets just like every other skeptic when faced with the ever-mutable list of predictions of “dire” events that will occur because of global warming (SORRY CLIMATE CHANGE!!!)
    4.The Economist is wrong because it is not examining the peer-reviewed literature on the subject and this is engaging in classic (or classical? smirk smirk) denialism?

Vay:

YOU choose to lump 911, truthers, antivacciners and such all together. I could equally lump you and your views together with those who were diehard investors in the truth of communism. Despite all the evidence, many still cannot believe that communism could fail. It was like proof positive that God did not exist. YOU I would equate with this same anti developmental, to be led by the government which knows better elitism that so characterized the almost religiously intense discussion of communism and its failings. That is why so many reds migrated to green.

You have a wonderful time with these debates, picking and choosing from you preferred web sites to answer questions that you cannot even begin to answer using your own thoughts and words… yet, the simple questions that you have never been able to answer are these: Why is it that so many are still so wrong about the climate? why are there so many unanswered questions? Your view is to take this as not skepticism but denialism. That is ridiculous. Everyone on this forum admits that the world is warming (which you like to deny we do) but we disagree about the causes and even more important the consequences. And then, you refer us back to the peer-reviewed literature on the subject like a puffed up priest referring to some creed or dogma with the threats of BELIEVE OR BE DAMNED!!! The simple fact is that for nearly 30 years billions have been spent to no avail… hundreds of thousands of conferences and meetings to what effect? and over the past 30 years, you can argue that it was not peer-reviewed climate scientists making the argument but the result was wild hyperbole and doomsday scenarios that are now admitted to have never been possible and never likely. And how do you respond, with the usual weak tea “but peer-reviewed scientists never said…” To which I answer fine… then Jotham and I are not speaking to or answering your ONE TRUE VIEW peer reviewed climate scientists but those foolish (many on this forum) hyper ventilators who said Greenland would melt, Antarctica would melt, the seas would rise by 10, 20, 30, 100 feet, the polar bears would disappear, Mt Kilimanjaro, the Himalayas would lose their glaciers, children would never smile again, flowers would never bloom, birds would never sing, fish would never swim nonsense. So challenge 1, tell us what YOU think that peer-reviewed scientists are saying and what peer-reviewed scientists say we can do at what cost to stop it (and why we should even try) and then tell us how it is all going to work and at what cost… This has all been tried before and guess what? YOUR side lost every single time… and that was not something that I need peer-reviewed scientists to predict. :loco: :loco: :loco: :loco:

[quote=“fred smith”]A number of peer-reviewed scientists are downright hostile to the current consensus.

A few thoughts for Brent, when we discuss 911 and evolution, we have a testing environment that allows us to examine all variables (or most) and with this limited set of information construct to a very strong degree the likelihood of something happening. Do you really think that it is the same for the climate change debate? And for all of Vay’s “sources,” it is truly amazing isn’t it? that he can find one to prove every predictable occurrence as having been, er, predicted? When the Economist weighs in and admits that the predictions have not been accurate and will soon fall out of the very lowest range of temperature predictions, what can we conclude?

  1. The Economist is not a climate scientist and has no ability to weigh in on the debate despite the fact that many read its in-depth reports by journalists dedicated to oil, politics, economics, conflict, international relations? precisely because they admire the Economist for its rigor, quality analysis and ability to report on complex sets of circumstances?
  2. The Economist has been bought out by evil oil and gas and coal interests?
  3. The Economist is wrong to take climate scientists at their predictions because scientists have always told us all along that there would be wide variables and that the climate is not so easily predicted? If this is the case, then… well, isn’t the Economist hedging its bets just like every other skeptic when faced with the ever-mutable list of predictions of “dire” events that will occur because of global warming (SORRY CLIMATE CHANGE!!!)
    4.The Economist is wrong because it is not examining the peer-reviewed literature on the subject and this is engaging in classic (or classical? smirk smirk) denialism?[/quote]

The Economist deserves respect and has a certain credibility. But we need to see the actual science behind it to judge what’s happening. If there is a slowdown in GW, then that is good news! I have yet to see someone post anything authoritative showing the slowdown in atmospheric warming, and then there are the warming oceans.

I’d like to see a good scientific summary of the whole thing before I judge the Economist article.

My apologies, I looked at two reports, but only one of them was peer-reviewed. When I went back to find it, I got the wrong one (not realizing there were two different reports).

This paper finds that Cook actually successfully codified in the record a clear-cut case that there is no consensus on AGW in the literature, though he didn’t intend to.

Here is what I meant to post:

[ul][color=#000080]PRESS RELEASE – September 3rd, 2013

A major peer-reviewed paper by four senior researchers has exposed grave errors in an earlier paper in a new and unknown journal that had claimed a 97.1% scientific consensus that Man had caused at least half the 0.7 Cº global warming since 1950.

A tweet in President Obama’s name had assumed that the earlier, flawed paper, by John Cook and others, showed 97% endorsement of the notion that climate change is dangerous:

“Ninety-seven percent of scientists agree: #climate change is real, man-made and dangerous.” [Emphasis added]

The new paper by the leading climatologist Dr David Legates and his colleagues, published in the respected Science and Education journal, now in its 21st year of publication, reveals that Cook had not considered whether scientists and their published papers had said climate change was “dangerous”.

The consensus Cook considered was the standard definition: that Man had caused most post-1950 warming.
Even on this weaker definition the true consensus among published scientific papers is now demonstrated to be not 97.1%, as Cook had claimed, but only 0.3%.

Only 41 out of the 11,944 published climate papers Cook examined explicitly stated that Man caused most of the warming since 1950. Cook himself had flagged just 64 papers as explicitly supporting that consensus, but 23 of the 64 had not in fact supported it.

This shock result comes scant weeks before the United Nations’ climate panel, the IPCC, issues its fifth five-yearly climate assessment, claiming “95% confidence” in the imagined – and, as the new paper shows, imaginary – consensus.

Climate Consensus and ‘Misinformation’: a Rejoinder to ‘Agnotology, Scientific Consensus, and the Teaching and Learning of Climate Change’ decisively rejects suggestions by Cook and others that those who say few scientists explicitly support the supposedly near-unanimous climate consensus are misinforming and misleading the public.

Dr Legates said:
“It is astonishing that any journal could have published a paper claiming a 97% climate consensus when on the authors’ own analysis the true consensus was well below 1%
.

“It is still more astonishing that the IPCC should claim 95% certainty about the climate consensus when so small a fraction of published papers explicitly endorse the consensus as the IPCC defines it.”

Dr Willie Soon, a distinguished solar physicist, quoted the late scientist-author Michael Crichton, who had said:
“If it’s science, it isn’t consensus; if it’s consensus, it isn’t science.”

He added: “There has been no global warming for almost 17 years. None of the ‘consensus’ computer models predicted that.”

Dr William Briggs, “Statistician to the Stars”, said: “In any survey such as Cook’s, it is essential to define the survey question very clearly.

Yet Cook used three distinct definitions of climate consensus interchangeably.

Also, he arbitrarily excluded about 8000 of the 12,000 papers in his sample on the unacceptable ground that they had expressed no opinion on the climate consensus. These artifices let him reach the unjustifiable conclusion that there was a 97.1% consensus when there was not.

“In fact, Cook’s paper provides the clearest available statistical evidence that there is scarcely any explicit support among scientists for the consensus that the IPCC, politicians, bureaucrats, academics and the media have so long and so falsely proclaimed. That was not the outcome Cook had hoped for, and it was not the outcome he had stated in his paper, but it was the outcome he had really found.”

Christopher Monckton of Brenchley, an expert reviewer for the IPCC’s imminent Fifth Assessment Report, who found the errors in Cook’s data, said: “It may be that more than 0.3% of climate scientists think Man caused at least half the warming since 1950. But only 0.3% of almost 12,000 published papers say so explicitly. Cook had not considered how many papers merely implied that. No doubt many scientists consider it possible, as we do, that Man caused some warming, but not most warming.

“It is unscientific to assume that most scientists believe what they have neither said nor written.”
[/color][/ul]

Climate Consensus and ‘Misinformation’: A Rejoinder to Agnotology, Scientific Consensus, and the Teaching and Learning of Climate Change

[ul][color=#000080]Abstract

Agnotology is the study of how ignorance arises via circulation of misinformation calculated to mislead. Legates et al. (Sci Educ 22:2007–2017, 2013) had questioned the applicability of agnotology to politically-charged debates. In their reply, Bedford and Cook (Sci Educ 22:2019–2030, 2013), seeking to apply agnotology to climate science, asserted that fossil-fuel interests had promoted doubt about a climate consensus. Their definition of climate ‘misinformation’ was contingent upon the post-modernist assumptions that scientific truth is discernible by measuring a consensus among experts, and that a near unanimous consensus exists. However, inspection of a claim by Cook et al. (Environ Res Lett 8:024024, 2013) of 97.1 % consensus, heavily relied upon by Bedford and Cook, shows just 0.3 % endorsement of the standard definition of consensus: that most warming since 1950 is anthropogenic. Agnotology, then, is a two-edged sword since either side in a debate may claim that general ignorance arises from misinformation allegedly circulated by the other. Significant questions about anthropogenic influences on climate remain. Therefore, Legates et al. appropriately asserted that partisan presentations of controversies stifle debate and have no place in education.[/color][/ul]

The reason I don’t lump 9/11 truthers in with people who would actually deny Evolution is simply because 9/11 was a closed investigation, and a horribly conducted one at that. Nobody outside government agencies had any opportunity to engage in any science and peer review so we really have nothing to go by. That’s also the reason why there really isn’t anything to debate. If you believe the government’s official story, great. If you don’t, that’s fine too. Neither position is based on any actual science so it’s a pointless debate.

Evolution has an absolute MOUNTAIN of evidence. The only reason on earth a person could deny it would be pure ignorance of what it is. Evolution deniers are vastly different than 9/11 truthers.

Brent:

BUT what are your views on where climate change “denialism” comes into this? Do you agree that climate change denialism can be lumped into the same mix as is being suggested by Vay? Or do you think that given the excessive media hype, and the ever-changing parameters set by organizations who are supposedly beased on (sing it with me you know the words) the SCIENCE of this debate (read: IPCC) and the failure after failure after failure to predict events except in the most vague horoscope-like language (in the upcoming year, expect to find challenges but also opportunities in your workplace), if you open yourself up, expect new and exciting opportunities in your love life. Just remember to keep your feet on the ground. Not ever romantic partner will prove ideal for you in the long term. Remain upbeat and happy and you will draw like-minded individuals into your life. So where are we at, ala Vay…

  1. The world is going to end! Scientists predict it! Manmade global warming from CO2 emissions is to blame!!! Run for the hills!!! The floods will be epic!!! We deserve out fate for out sinful use of resources!!! Repent!!! The end is near!!!
  2. After 30 years of dire predictions and the usual disasters, NO ONE ever said the world would end. No one said the Himalayas would lose all their glaciers by 2030; no one said the snows of Kilimanjaro would disappear; no one except Al Gore said there would be 20 foot sealevel rises, and remember he is NOT a climate scientist; no one said the Arctic would melt; no one said the polar bears would become extinct; and LOOK at all those floods, and heat waves and hurricanes!!!
  3. After report after report noting that hurricanes are not more frequent; the polar bears appear to be just fine and questions regarding models that do not appear to be accurate predictors of events: NO ONE said hurricanes would become more frequent; they said they would become more intense; no one said polar bears would disappear and who knows? has anyone done a conclusive, comprehensive study? Yes… Well, then, it is NOT peer-reviewed… and those models are just models; no one said they would be perfect. They have, however, shown the world is warming. (no on is disputing that). They have shown that temperatures have risen and so have selevels. (they rose before manmade CO2 emissions were of sufficient quantities to make a difference). Where’s the disaster?

We love models, except when we don’t…

[quote]
We can now report one more happy possibility: fewer Sandy-like superstorms likely to hit land in the eastern U.S., according to a new study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The research, which projects what the authors call an “extreme warming scenario” through 2100, is being met with skepticism from the climate-change crowd, for whom bad news is the only news worth reporting.

Activist-scientists lost no time last fall in declaring that Superstorm Sandy represented a “new normal,” as one senior researcher at the U.S. National Center for Atmospheric Research put it. Noted climatologist Barack Obama followed up in his State of the Union address by invoking the devastation in New York and New Jersey and “the overwhelming judgment of science” as justification for new anti-carbon subsidies and regulations.

The paper’s authors note that “recent studies disagree on whether Atlantic hurricane frequencies will increase or decrease as the climate warms.” In separate comments to the press, EIizabeth Barnes of Colorado State and Columbia University’s Adam Sobel and Lorenzo Polvani are also emphasizing that other factors in a globally warming world may increase the intensity of storms and that rising sea levels would make them more damaging.

Even so, the paper has led a number of climate scaremongers to rediscover their inner skeptics. The same people who have spent two decades lobbying for multi-trillion-dollar global efforts to combat climate change on the basis of these computer models have responded to the good-news story by tut-tutting that [color=#000000]
atmospheric trends may be too complicated to be fully captured in any computer simulation.
[/color] Now they tell us. Would that all new climate projections got the same reception.[/quote]

online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 … TTopBucket

Yeah yeah yeah. You keep telling yourself uncertainty is on your side if it helps you sleep at night. You know what climate models are bad at predicting? Tipping points - like when northern Africa rather quickly shifted from a pretty hospitable region to what it is now.

Four Hiroshima bombs worth of heat being added to the climate per SECOND. There has been no, repeat no slowdown in that. After reading the last few frantic posts, I’m getting pretty bored with the discussion, but I will go ahead and post this:

Why trust climate models?

It’s a good article.

On Jotham’s point that only .3 of the papers explicitly endorse AGW: a similar observation could be made about the consensus on evolution (and you’d probably agree!) That is because neither of these questions are in the least controversial - except to a bunch of OJ lawyers like you and Fred. One doesn’t see many papers in the literature admitting the Earth is sphere-like and orbits the sun, either, but that doesn’t throw heliocentricity into question.

Moreover I absolutely love the fact that your article manages to slip in a line from Willie Soong denying the role of consensus in science (not only is there no consensus, but science doesn’t work by consensus!) The problem with which I’ve explained in this and other threads - oh - about ten times. To top it off, they’ve got a quote by the most discredited, most ridiculous AGW denier of all, Monckton. For a laugh, read his CR some time.

So Jotham, you’ve obviously got a lot of time on your hands - why not sign up at SkS and rate the abstracts yourself:
skepticalscience.com/tcp.php?t=rate_papers

[quote]but science doesn’t work by consensus![/quote]

Thanks Vay. About time you got with the program. You do understand, however, don’t you? just who is beating the consensus drum and why? and that (hint hint) would not be Jotham or I.

Fred, to answer your question as simply as I can because I find you and Jotham exhaustingly boring to read, yes I do think the climate change debate can be thrown in with actual testable science, where as 9/11 related debates cannot. Unlike 9/11 debates, climate debates have actual science we can reference. I realize you and Jotham would rather not reference any actual science and I suppose that’s your choice in the end, but don’t think for a second that your silly inferences to horoscopes and hyperbole predictions that didn’t come true in any way are on par with the extensive list of actual peer reviewed science that Vay has been giving us. This debate is clearly intellect vs ignorance. Science vs random chatter and personal opinion. Well, I’ll throw my hat in with actual science if you don’t mind…

[quote=“fred smith”]Brent:

BUT what are your views on where climate change “denialism” comes into this? Do you agree that climate change denialism can be lumped into the same mix as is being suggested by Vay? Or do you think that given the excessive media hype, and the ever-changing parameters set by organizations who are supposedly beased on (sing it with me you know the words) the SCIENCE of this debate (read: IPCC) and the failure after failure after failure to predict events except in the most vague horoscope-like language (in the upcoming year, expect to find challenges but also opportunities in your workplace), if you open yourself up, expect new and exciting opportunities in your love life. Just remember to keep your feet on the ground. Not ever romantic partner will prove ideal for you in the long term. Remain upbeat and happy and you will draw like-minded individuals into your life. So where are we at, ala Vay…

  1. The world is going to end! Scientists predict it! Manmade global warming from CO2 emissions is to blame!!! Run for the hills!!! The floods will be epic!!! We deserve out fate for out sinful use of resources!!! Repent!!! The end is near!!!
  2. After 30 years of dire predictions and the usual disasters, NO ONE ever said the world would end. No one said the Himalayas would lose all their glaciers by 2030; no one said the snows of Kilimanjaro would disappear; no one except Al Gore said there would be 20 foot sealevel rises, and remember he is NOT a climate scientist; no one said the Arctic would melt; no one said the polar bears would become extinct; and LOOK at all those floods, and heat waves and hurricanes!!!
  3. After report after report noting that hurricanes are not more frequent; the polar bears appear to be just fine and questions regarding models that do not appear to be accurate predictors of events: NO ONE said hurricanes would become more frequent; they said they would become more intense; no one said polar bears would disappear and who knows? has anyone done a conclusive, comprehensive study? Yes… Well, then, it is NOT peer-reviewed… and those models are just models; no one said they would be perfect. They have, however, shown the world is warming. (no on is disputing that). They have shown that temperatures have risen and so have selevels. (they rose before manmade CO2 emissions were of sufficient quantities to make a difference). Where’s the disaster?[/quote]

Yes, fred the world is a complex place. It is so much better and more comfortable for you to be safe and clear in the arms of uncles Koch. They and their friends are SO confident, it is really reassuring, isn’t it?

It’s all a commie plot! It’s all a commie plot! (Keep whispering this to yourself fred, it’ll reduce your blood pressure) It’s all a commie plot!

[quote=“fred smith”]
[quote]but science doesn’t work by consensus![/quote]

Thanks Vay. About time you got with the program. You do understand, however, don’t you? just who is beating the consensus drum and why? and that (hint hint) would not be Jotham or I.[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus

It does when it comes to determining public policy!

My apologies, I looked at two reports, but only one of them was peer-reviewed. When I went back to find it, I got the wrong one (not realizing there were two different reports).

This paper finds that Cook actually successfully codified in the record a clear-cut case that there is no consensus on AGW in the literature, though he didn’t intend to.

Here is what I meant to post:

[list][color=#000080]PRESS RELEASE – September 3rd, 2013

A major peer-reviewed paper by four senior researchers has exposed grave errors in an earlier paper in a new and unknown journal that had claimed a 97.1% scientific consensus that Man had caused at least half the 0.7 Cº global warming since 1950.

A tweet in President Obama’s name had assumed that the earlier, flawed paper, by John Cook and others, showed 97% endorsement of the notion that climate change is dangerous:

“Ninety-seven percent of scientists agree: #climate change is real, man-made and dangerous.” [Emphasis added]

The new paper by the leading climatologist Dr David Legates and his colleagues, published in the respected Science and Education journal, now in its 21st year of publication, reveals that Cook had not considered whether scientists and their published papers had said climate change was “dangerous”.
[/quote]

Interesting! It seems like Cook overreached.

Of course, having Monckton as a spokesperson is not a good idea, as he has overreached many times himself.

And there are many other studies (Starting with Oreskes in 2004) showing a strong scientific consensus on GW.

But a good link nonetheless.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:[/quote]

It’s a commie plot fred!