How to argue with a global warming "skeptic"

I don’t have an issue with this anymore than to “leave no child behind” or to “race to the top” or to “ensure that all children are proficient in math and English.” The issue that I have is whether it is wise to waste billions more while imposing regulations that collectively cost trillions in lost economic development to achieve the same failure as the last policy delivered. When and if someone has a plan, I am ALL EARS.

But like the public school fiasco, the solution miraculum miraculorum is MORE $$$s. I just have an issue with more administrative positions being created to “study” the problem or for groups to receive funding so that they can “raise awareness” about this issue or to send delegates to some international resort to “put their heads together to come up with a solution to the problem, while respecting the cultural and gender diversity represented in the forum to ensure that all narratives are heard and that the voiceless receive a voice in order to deliver social justice and an equitable collaborative effort that leads to sustainable solutions.”

Aren’t there more jobs now in non carbon industries than in coal and oil? And with the price of oil now feared to stay low permanenlty doesn’t it make economic sense to steer the economy in the non carbon direction ?

And when the sun shines, the sky is brighter or when it rains, the ground gets wet? When and if there is a connection between the achieved benefit and the huge output, then fine. Otherwise, the reality seems to be more that we are spending hundreds of billions to engage in interpretative dance that has no effect on whether the sun shines or the rain, er, rains.

And when the sun shines, the sky is brighter or when it rains, the ground gets wet? When and if there is a connection between the achieved benefit and the huge output, then fine. Otherwise, the reality seems to be more that we are spending hundreds of billions to engage in interpretative dance that has no effect on whether the sun shines or the rain, er, rains.[/quote]

Fred please use simple concise language. My concentration spam is shot to hell I’ve been living in Taiwan for long time.

Why is cheaper cleaner energy a bad thing ?

Achieve how?
Achieve what cost?

What you mean achieve how…we are doing it already

At what cost ? No cost just benefits for economy and environment
Please explain

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz huh? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  1. Are you suggesting that we are transitioning to a low-carbon economy? Please choose ONE answer YES or NO.
  2. Are you suggesting that GOVERNMENT taxes, policies or measures are helping the U.S. economy transition to a low-carbon economy? Yes or NO.
  1. Yes but not to the degree we would hope due to the sickness in the US called the Republican Party. I take it Fred you are with us and united in irradicating this destructive radical insurgence. If not please explain why not and how you justify why not and your personal plan to make up for the fact that you have supported this radical group

  2. Government has been behind every technological advancement and every thing you are doing now Fred - Internet, the chips in your smartphone and laptop, the bandwidth we are using now…

Wow. You got a copy of the talking points and have retained a key media message. :eh:

I dispute that government programs have led to a lower carbon energy environment. Rather it was the PRIVATE sector that developed much of the natural gas, including through fracking. The federal government and its agencies naturally want to claim that as a success but their efforts had very little to do with this transition and, in fact, many environmental policies and concerned activists have SLOWED the process thus described. Back to you. NOT convinced. Challenge!

I didn’t know i would have to follow up a good point with a whole bunch of good little points …

I want out

I can well imagine that you do!

It’s only a good point if it is true :slight_smile: or SORRY!!! PEER-REVIEWED!!! Yours is just an absorbed talking point. Not the same. See the difference?

upworthy.com/the-longest-and … -on-camera

Really excited about the Paris Climate Conference. Just like I was with regard to the ones in Copenhagen, Durban, Rio… Am I forgetting any? But rest assured, I am EXCITED :slight_smile:

[quote]Some important numbers that will affect the global warming debate came out in the media this week and they are worth reviewing. First — and most incredibly — the New York Times revealed that the amount of coal China burns has been underreported by about 1 billion tons a year, and has been underreported for the last 15 years. The Times states, “Even for a country of China’s size, the scale of the correction is immense … [and] the increase alone is greater than the whole German economy emits annually from fossil fuels.” Oops! This revelation obviously raises questions about the overall accuracy and dependability of the sea of numbers that drive the policy decisions advocated by President Obama, Hillary Clinton and the Democrats. If the climate change activists were off by 1 billion tons of emissions just from coal use from one country and that’s data they used to contrive the models that “prove” the “settled science” of man-made global warming, what else are they wrong about? And what makes us think these numbers are accurate now?

And oh, by the way, I find it curious how liberals always seem to do things in increments of 1 billion: a billion tons missed here and there, a billion dollars for this and that. It doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence that there is an actual equation supporting their numbers.

Anyway, a second piece this week, “The Next Climate Scandal” from Holman W. Jenkins Jr. in the Wall Street Journal, reminds us of how easy it is to manipulate the global temperature numbers. Jenkins writes, “By the count of researcher Marcia Wyatt in a widely circulated presentation, the U.S. government’s published temperature data for the years 1880-2010 has been tinkered with sixteen times in the past three years.” This is politics at its worst: With 16 recounts, you can rig any outcome. Jenkins also highlights Rep/ Lamar Smith’s (R-Tex.) quest to determine how and why U.S. government employees at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) took a second look at global warming data and subsequently determined there had been no cessation in global warming for the last 15 years, “eliminat[ing] the ‘pause’ in global warming seen in most temperature studies.” Remarkable. And even more remarkably — although I suppose not that surprising, since it fits nicely with the Democrats’ governing style these days — is how government agencies are hiding from congressional oversight. Specifically, they’re refusing to comply with lawfully issued subpoenas. NOAA spokeswoman Ciaran Clayton, a federal government employee, actually said they did not need to comply because, “We have provided all of the information the Committee needs to understand this issue.” That sums up the Obama administration’s condescending view of legal compliance when it comes to its pet causes. Of course if you or I had that attitude about subpoenas, we would be in prison. Period.

And while we are at it and as the COP21 conference in Paris approaches, let’s keep in mind some other numbers. According to NOAA data, the amount of total CO2 in Earth’s atmosphere is approximately three one-hundredths of 1 percent, or .0003 of the total atmosphere. And the man-made contribution to that total amount of CO2 is only .0004 of that number — bear with me; yes, they will be talking about only four one-hundredths of that three one-hundredths of a percent in Paris. Never has so much been spent on so little. And the Democrats are just getting started. What are we willing to sacrifice in terms of economy and the human quality of life to make a tiny fraction of a small number slightly smaller? Given what we know so far, it is fair to ask if it is possible to make an impact, or if it is even measurable.
[/quote]

washingtonpost.com/blogs/po … ing-crowd/

So says James Hansen NASA scientist and climate change alarmist plus celebre. And I thought that all of this climate change business was already a done-known deal. Apparently not but like the last 30 years, this time he means business and it will really reveal itself in the next few more years. REALLY! I HAVE THE ANSWERS!!!

salon.com/2015/07/27/donald_ … n_realize/

Just thought Mr Smith might find this amusing:

sg.news.yahoo.com/green-campaig … 57382.html

FWIW I think this kind of stunt is a load of hogwash. There’s plenty of awareness. The problem is that nobody actually gives a shit - partly because climate deniers have convinced everyone (including policymakers) that fixing the problems will cost more money than a Middle East war. What on earth is anyone supposed to do about that?

He’s brave I’ll give him that, but someone may also want to remind him that a potential threat to his two children might also include a father that’s either sick or dead because of this journey.

Speaking of brave, I would like to salute all of these activists for their bravery during this period of CRISIS!!!

[quote]Climate change artist-activists sidestep protest ban during COP21 summit
The French government banned public demonstrations after the ISIS terror attacks on Paris, but artists found other ways to express their politics

By Michael Walsh

The Brandalism group placed artwork in advertising spaces owned by outdoor advertising firm JC Decaux, an official sponsor to the COP21 climate talks. This image criticizes what they see as British Prime Minister David Cameron’s hypocrisy. (Brandalism)
They aren’t waiting for permission to speak their minds.

Activists have circumvented the French government’s controversial ban on public protests — enacted in the wake of the Nov. 13 terrorist attacks that killed 130 people — by mounting art installations, hoping to capture the world’s attention as heads of state gather in Paris for the United Nations Climate Change Conference. In projects ranging from sculpture to guerrilla art, light shows and film, artists have sought to remind the negotiators what they are fighting against — the most devastating consequences of climate change — and for: the ecosystem of the planet and the homes of some of the world’s most vulnerable people.

‘Where the Tides Ebb and Flow’

Argentine artist Pedro Marzorati wants to raise awareness of worldwide sea level rise with his project “Where the Tides Ebb and Flow.” It shows 30 sculptures of blue men submerged in the lake at Montsouris Park. “My message is to make people think about this big and contemporary problem in a poetic way,” Marzorati said to Yahoo News. “I hope [this reaches the politicians], but I await much more the reaction from the public of Paris. It’s a good moment. The consciousness is here.” The project, first unveiled in Holland in 2008, was installed in Paris over three days in October by Marzorati and his team.

The Brandalism project, a U.K.-based antiadvertising campaign, announced that it has plastered Paris with more than 600 unauthorized artworks by more than 80 artists from 19 countries, meant to illustrate the connection among advertising, consumerism, fossil-fuel dependency and climate change. Although the two-week conference is just getting underway, Brandalism is already criticizing what it considers the “corporate takeover” of the negotiations. “By sponsoring the climate talks, major polluters such as Air France and GDF-Suez-Engie [a French electric utility company] can promote themselves as part of the solution when actually they are part of the problem,” Joe Elan from Brandalism said in a statement. “We are taking their spaces back because we want to challenge the role advertising plays in promoting unsustainable consumerism. Because the advertising industry force-feeds our desires for products created from fossil fuels, they are intimately connected to causing climate change.”

‘Particle Falls’

American environmental artist Andrea Polli created a “reactive light projection” called “Particle Falls” that is displayed on the façade of the Mona Bismarck American Center in Paris. ‘Particle Falls’ is a project that makes what is invisible around us visible. A sensor called a nephelometer measures light scattering with a tiny laser to ‘count’ the number of tiny particles in the air in real time,” Polli said in an email to Yahoo News. The installation, which changes before your eyes, will show viewers the current levels of air pollution as a digitally generated light show until it is removed on Dec. 13. “When you see ‘Particle Falls’ change, you are seeing the current air quality around the sensor,” Polli continued. “‘Particle Falls’ is the result of a long investigation into ways to communicate climate and weather data to the public, specifically real-time data.” By focusing on particles in the air — rather than carbon dioxide, which is invisible — the artist is broadening her interest to environmental pollution generally. Particulate pollution is a threat to human health but is not a focus of the climate talks.

‘The Standing March’

French artist JR and American filmmaker Darren Aronofsky put together an ingenious protest that didn’t require the physical presence of actual protesters. “The Standing March” video shows more than 500 people from various backgrounds, representing all of humanity, to remind diplomats that “the world is watching.” Agitating for what they hope will be a meaningful agreement, the artists projected the video against the Assemblée Nationale (the lower house of French Parliament) on Sunday and Monday. They will bring it to different locations, to be disclosed on their social media accounts, throughout the nation’s capital until December 7.

Empty shoes

Similarly, on Sunday activists laid out thousands of shoes at the Place de la Republique in Paris to symbolize the climate change marchers who had expected to gather before the French government temporarily outlawed public demonstrations. A sea of footwear, from high heels to outdoor boots, could be seen at the popular gathering place. Pope Francis contributed his simple black shoes and United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon was represented by his running sneakers. Both leaders have been outspoken about the responsibility of the international community to confront the threat of anthropogenic climate change.

'1 Heart 1 Tree’

Avant-garde artist Naziha Mestaoui organized a unique collaborative project called “1 Heart 1 Tree” that is transforming world monuments into virtual forests with light. And you can participate in this collective project. After downloading the smartphone app, a participant places a finger on the sensor to record the rhythm of his or her heartbeat, which guides how each unique tree “grows” on the Eiffel Tower. “And here is the true beauty of it. Each virtual tree is going to grow in real life, planted in a reforestation program, so the virtual becomes real,” Mestaoui said in a video. “The plan is to plant millions of trees." The Eiffel Tower project lit up for the project on Nov. 29 and will last throughout the COP21 talks.

Meanwhile, inside the conference…

The delegates inside the climate summit have been speaking in terms that reflect both the urgency and the inclusiveness expressed in the art projects. At the opening of the talks on Monday, Ban called upon the more than 150 world leaders gathered to “choose the path of compromise and consensus and, if necessary, flexibility.” Bold climate action is in the national interest of every single country represented at the conference, he emphasized. “Let us build a durable climate regimen with clear rules of the road that all countries can agree to follow,” Ban said. “Paris must mark a decisive turning point. We need the world to know that we are headed to a lower emissions, climate-resilient future and there is no going back.” Rarely have so many people around the world placed their trust in so few, as Britain’s Prince Charles reminded the conference in his keynote speech. He urged fellow state representatives to think of their grandchildren and the youngest generation as they make decisions. "By damaging the climate, we have become the architects of our own destruction,” Charles said. “While the planet can survive the scorching of the earth and the rising of the waters, the human race cannot.” As he prepared to leave Paris on Tuesday, President Obama struck a more workmanlike note, urging the negotiators to come up with a legally binding mechanism to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions. “We have accomplished a lot here,” he said optimistically, “and I have high hopes that over the next two weeks we’ll accomplish even more.”[/quote]

I must salute this immense bravery to be able to exhibit art in the face of all of these challenges to agitate for awareness. Let’s ALL AGITATE 4 AWARENESS NOW!!!

[quote=“fred smith”]Speaking of brave, I would like to salute all of these activists for their bravery during this period of CRISIS!!!

[quote]Climate change artist-activists sidestep protest ban during COP21 summit
The French government banned public demonstrations after the ISIS terror attacks on Paris, but artists found other ways to express their politics

By Michael Walsh

The Brandalism group placed artwork in advertising spaces owned by outdoor advertising firm JC Decaux, an official sponsor to the COP21 climate talks. This image criticizes what they see as British Prime Minister David Cameron’s hypocrisy. (Brandalism)
They aren’t waiting for permission to speak their minds.

Activists have circumvented the French government’s controversial ban on public protests — enacted in the wake of the Nov. 13 terrorist attacks that killed 130 people — by mounting art installations, hoping to capture the world’s attention as heads of state gather in Paris for the United Nations Climate Change Conference. In projects ranging from sculpture to guerrilla art, light shows and film, artists have sought to remind the negotiators what they are fighting against — the most devastating consequences of climate change — and for: the ecosystem of the planet and the homes of some of the world’s most vulnerable people.

‘Where the Tides Ebb and Flow’

Argentine artist Pedro Marzorati wants to raise awareness of worldwide sea level rise with his project “Where the Tides Ebb and Flow.” It shows 30 sculptures of blue men submerged in the lake at Montsouris Park. “My message is to make people think about this big and contemporary problem in a poetic way,” Marzorati said to Yahoo News. “I hope [this reaches the politicians], but I await much more the reaction from the public of Paris. It’s a good moment. The consciousness is here.” The project, first unveiled in Holland in 2008, was installed in Paris over three days in October by Marzorati and his team.

The Brandalism project, a U.K.-based antiadvertising campaign, announced that it has plastered Paris with more than 600 unauthorized artworks by more than 80 artists from 19 countries, meant to illustrate the connection among advertising, consumerism, fossil-fuel dependency and climate change. Although the two-week conference is just getting underway, Brandalism is already criticizing what it considers the “corporate takeover” of the negotiations. “By sponsoring the climate talks, major polluters such as Air France and GDF-Suez-Engie [a French electric utility company] can promote themselves as part of the solution when actually they are part of the problem,” Joe Elan from Brandalism said in a statement. “We are taking their spaces back because we want to challenge the role advertising plays in promoting unsustainable consumerism. Because the advertising industry force-feeds our desires for products created from fossil fuels, they are intimately connected to causing climate change.”

‘Particle Falls’

American environmental artist Andrea Polli created a “reactive light projection” called “Particle Falls” that is displayed on the façade of the Mona Bismarck American Center in Paris. ‘Particle Falls’ is a project that makes what is invisible around us visible. A sensor called a nephelometer measures light scattering with a tiny laser to ‘count’ the number of tiny particles in the air in real time,” Polli said in an email to Yahoo News. The installation, which changes before your eyes, will show viewers the current levels of air pollution as a digitally generated light show until it is removed on Dec. 13. “When you see ‘Particle Falls’ change, you are seeing the current air quality around the sensor,” Polli continued. “‘Particle Falls’ is the result of a long investigation into ways to communicate climate and weather data to the public, specifically real-time data.” By focusing on particles in the air — rather than carbon dioxide, which is invisible — the artist is broadening her interest to environmental pollution generally. Particulate pollution is a threat to human health but is not a focus of the climate talks.

‘The Standing March’

French artist JR and American filmmaker Darren Aronofsky put together an ingenious protest that didn’t require the physical presence of actual protesters. “The Standing March” video shows more than 500 people from various backgrounds, representing all of humanity, to remind diplomats that “the world is watching.” Agitating for what they hope will be a meaningful agreement, the artists projected the video against the Assemblée Nationale (the lower house of French Parliament) on Sunday and Monday. They will bring it to different locations, to be disclosed on their social media accounts, throughout the nation’s capital until December 7.

Empty shoes

Similarly, on Sunday activists laid out thousands of shoes at the Place de la Republique in Paris to symbolize the climate change marchers who had expected to gather before the French government temporarily outlawed public demonstrations. A sea of footwear, from high heels to outdoor boots, could be seen at the popular gathering place. Pope Francis contributed his simple black shoes and United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon was represented by his running sneakers. Both leaders have been outspoken about the responsibility of the international community to confront the threat of anthropogenic climate change.

'1 Heart 1 Tree’

Avant-garde artist Naziha Mestaoui organized a unique collaborative project called “1 Heart 1 Tree” that is transforming world monuments into virtual forests with light. And you can participate in this collective project. After downloading the smartphone app, a participant places a finger on the sensor to record the rhythm of his or her heartbeat, which guides how each unique tree “grows” on the Eiffel Tower. “And here is the true beauty of it. Each virtual tree is going to grow in real life, planted in a reforestation program, so the virtual becomes real,” Mestaoui said in a video. “The plan is to plant millions of trees." The Eiffel Tower project lit up for the project on Nov. 29 and will last throughout the COP21 talks.

Meanwhile, inside the conference…

The delegates inside the climate summit have been speaking in terms that reflect both the urgency and the inclusiveness expressed in the art projects. At the opening of the talks on Monday, Ban called upon the more than 150 world leaders gathered to “choose the path of compromise and consensus and, if necessary, flexibility.” Bold climate action is in the national interest of every single country represented at the conference, he emphasized. “Let us build a durable climate regimen with clear rules of the road that all countries can agree to follow,” Ban said. “Paris must mark a decisive turning point. We need the world to know that we are headed to a lower emissions, climate-resilient future and there is no going back.” Rarely have so many people around the world placed their trust in so few, as Britain’s Prince Charles reminded the conference in his keynote speech. He urged fellow state representatives to think of their grandchildren and the youngest generation as they make decisions. "By damaging the climate, we have become the architects of our own destruction,” Charles said. “While the planet can survive the scorching of the earth and the rising of the waters, the human race cannot.” As he prepared to leave Paris on Tuesday, President Obama struck a more workmanlike note, urging the negotiators to come up with a legally binding mechanism to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions. “We have accomplished a lot here,” he said optimistically, “and I have high hopes that over the next two weeks we’ll accomplish even more.”[/quote]

I must salute this immense bravery to be able to exhibit art in the face of all of these challenges to agitate for awareness. Let’s ALL AGITATE 4 AWARENESS NOW!!![/quote]

You mean protecting official government narratives. If you were so fricken concerned about this earth you would have mentioned the non stop radiation pouring into the Pacific for the past 4 years with no end in sight from Fukushima.

And the non-stop radiation pouring from Agent Smith! Let’s AGITATE FOR ACTION NOW!!! URGENTLY!!! NOW!!! ACT!!!

I rest my case.