z, exactly who should get credit for different aspects of democratization is something i’m still delving into. have your read the new biography titled madame chiang kai-shek written by laura tyson li? she says some surprising things. one is that chiang jing guo was racing against his bad health (and the knowledge that he wouldn’t be around to much longer?) to implement democratic reforms which core KMT members were against. aside from democratization, i also learned from the book that the much vaunted KMT land reform was in fact pushed by the US. If it hadn’t been for US pressure, there wouldn’t have been any land reform. Also I didn’t know about the heroic (as portrayed by the book) KC Wu and how he knocked heads with Chiang Kai Shek over Taiwan. I think there are admirable and detestable people in both parties, but overall, I have to side with the party that doesn’t want to be swallowed up by China. I will probably bring up the Madame Chiang biography more in the History section of forumosa. The book is copyrighted 2006.
Taiwan should move on .
DPP shouldn’t be trapped in the miserable pass.
v,
The KMT gets all the credit and blame for everything prior to 1989.
USA has been pressuring ROC since 1940’s. The question is really how does a political party on Taiwan respond to foreign pressure for the good of the population. Obviously the DPP have much to learn in this aspect of governance.
ShrimpCrackers,
You got some serious soul searching to do. I mean seriously how “Chinese” or “Taiwanese” can you be? Granted in the USA there is mainstream pressure to not perceive Asians as authentic Americans. But do you seriously think you can pass for “Chinese” or “Taiwanese” on Taiwan or anywhere in the Far East?
So some more bicultural Asians labeled you a “Twinkie” or “banana” in high school. High school sucks right. But to hate on Chinese half a world away and to support the more “racist” political party on Taiwan, seems quite an effort in projection.
Of course identity is a self proclaim action. However, because of your Asian appearance, how do you know you won’t become the next Michelle Malkin, exploiting her minority appearance to appear more credible when offering opinions about her "group.”
One aspect of pride in terms of being an Asian American is about up lifting the image of Asians in mainstream America. Kind of hard to do when there are Asian Americans going “They (Asians in Far East Asia) suck” and mainstream America hears “We (Asians) suck.”
I prefer the greens partly out of history, and partly because Taiwan needs to break with its past, and the KMT is unable to do that right now.
Whenever I start thinking nice things about KMT, a visit to the 2-28 memorial hall cures me instantly.
[quote=“Mr He”]I prefer the greens partly out of history, and partly because Taiwan needs to break with its past, and the KMT is unable to do that right now.
Whenever I start thinking nice things about KMT, a visit to the 2-28 memorial hall cures me instantly.[/quote]
What, you have some kind of problem with gay people!??!?!?!?!?!?
No, I am kidding… only kidding… 
I think the problem here is that people are siding mostly with parties or sides rather than individuals. Of course there are rotten apples on every tree. We have to focus on individuals specifically. There are people in the KMT that I do like. There are people in the DPP that I dislike very very much. There will always be crazy fringe-types on both sides we could endlessly argue about and get nowhere. This is why we need to support individuals that we think could bring Taiwan forward rather than go for blind party loyalty, or worse, turn into an apologist.
On the other-hand, I think its high time that the KMT goes out of existence and a new party name replaces it. Carrying a party flag tarnished by the deaths of 10 million plus innocent civilians is difficult and as tasteful as carrying the Nazi party or Japanese Imperialist flag. How come most of their supporters haven’t pushed for any official declarations of apology for the atrocities committed by the KMT? The lack any push to make amends makes it seem like they don’t care despite all their talk about historical connections and its importance. This is why I can’t wrap my mind around the local KMT apologists we have here; they don’t think that 2-28 and the White-Terror is significant enough to do anything about, but they think the Chinese-connection is worthy of getting up-in-arms about. If they really cared about history, they should not be picking and choosing it.
No the DPP as a whole is not. Some individuals within the party are. Ex. just because 1 guy in the Democratic Party is pushing for the draft (to make a statement) does not mean the Democratic party as a whole are pushing for the draft as well.
I also wonder about this obsession with the “Chinese past”. Your writings make you seem a bit race-centric/obsessed. Anyway, do you have any idea how much emphasis there is on British ancestry and teachings being taught in American schools? They skim over European history in a few weeks and then concentrate the rest of the semester on American history. If any Caucasian American wants to learn about their “undeniable” European past they can go read about or gasp major in it during their college years. Singapore and Malaysia are already guilty of not emphasizing Chinese history. Are you outraged that they too don’t emphasize their strong connections with their “undeniable Chinese past”?
Its just as you said, they are “long-faded lines”. Taiwan has a history too, and it should not be ignored.
“Taiwan for Taiwanese and those that care about Taiwan…”. You wrote as if this was a bad idea. If not Taiwanese and those that love Taiwan, then for who? The Chinese? The Japanese? Everyone but the Taiwanese? How are they then screwing everyone else outside of Taiwan (I really don’t understand what you mean)?
I think the term Taiwan for Taiwanese is like saying America for Americans. Its better that way than say in the past in which Taiwan was only for the elite KuoMinTang connected political and business cronies. I mean why did the KuoMinTang cronies get tax relief, discounts on utilities, and their kids get exam bonuses? That is definitely not what one might consider “Taiwan for Taiwanese”.
[quote=“Chris”]I happen also to be a strong critic of America’s xenophobia, and am dismayed that the US has taken such a great leap backwards in that respect post 9/11 under Bush. I also believe that two wrongs don’t make a right.
By the way, I’m not a teacher and I personally don’t have visa problems, but I do sympathize with the others who, say, teach kindergarten, as well as other foreigners struggling to stay here long term.[/quote]
Visa problems exist all over the planet; the problems you are describing is not really a product of the DPP, but half this planet. Go visit PekingDuck.org, you’ll find countless more cases of racism over across the border. Doesn’t make it a right but it shows that Taiwan’s situation is far better, is improving gradually, and will eventually get to an acceptable standard. Its good that you feel strongly about these issues, if you are a citizen, have you approached or written letters and taken some form of activism to get your message across?
Also its no secret that SOME “foreign” teachers here get away with fudged taxes when secretly teaching at more than one job. But its also no secret that bored police officials get off “catching” these relatively harmless people as opposed to the real crooks that steal far far far more than any teacher could possibly “steal” in taxes. But that is probably because, lets face it, investigating Ma is career-death for many. Meanwhile its far easier to grab and investigate any foreign guy at any random school.
Although the situation in Taiwan feels light-years ahead of say that in South Korea, Taiwan is still not up to satisfactory standards. We definitely need to show our support for a given cause. I’m old enough to have low expectations for any political party on the planet. I expect corruption and regard it as human nature. But I also see that there are individuals out to make things better on both sides. I may not like what the KMT stands for, but I do like certain individuals within the party. We need to learn to compromise.
@AC Dropout
I’m really amused by his statement. Considering that he hasn’t digested the fact that I’ve already decided upon my identity and that’s that. In addition, the problems he’s facing in America are just a glass ceiling. Anyone can rise above it, especially easy if they rid of their accent and pick up on basic social cues. Also I’ve been involved in Asian American rights and activism since I was 16, so I don’t get why there’s an attempted lecture on the topic.
ShrimpCrackers,
Once again you confuse many issues. There is only party politics on Taiwan. Unless the person runs as an independent, there is no way for the constituents to control which “fringe” interest within the party will be forwarded. So you cannot honestly believe that by supporting a moderate “Green” that the fringe interests of the Japanese wannabes, and Hoklo racist are not forwarded as well when the opportunity arises.
What is to be outraged about 228 and White Terror? You are victim of neither. Whatever oppression you think happened to you in high school while in the US, has nothing to do with those historic events.
Taiwanese means Hoklo in Taiwan politics. That is why LTH had to make up neo-Taiwanese to include himself as people who belong in Taiwan. Because the Hoklo don’t think LTH belongs. That’s why CSB keeps pushing LTH out of the spotlight, because his constituents don’t consider LTH an authentic Taiwanese.
Perhaps in your Green shaded world you think things are getting better on Taiwan in terms of sub-ethnic tension and globalization. Neither area has drastically improved in the last 8 years. In fact, many people feel that the reverse his happening. People in my generation that went to high school in Taiwan rarely heard terms about WSR or BSR. Now that is all you hear about during election time. WSR that, BSR this.
Reality check, but WSR have been on Taiwan for 3-4 generations now. It usually takes only 1 generation to become an American.
So what’s wrong with your analysis that Taiwan is for Taiwanese. If everyone on Taiwan is now Taiwanese.
My American accents are quite authentic. The only I ones haven’t mastered are impersonating Asian FOBs. Must have been some other poster you’ve stalked in real life you’ve mistaken me for.
Like it has been mentioned many times before an identity needs to be reciprocated by society for it to be functioning identity.
You may believe you’re an American like an apple pie, but don’t be shocked when people ask you “Where are you from?” and don’t accept NYC as an answer.
You may believe you’re a Taiwanese like a sweat potato, but don’t be shocked when people don’t accept an answer unless it is in Daiwan wei.
AC, you should be embracing what shrimp said about supporting individuals in either party- why don’t you be constructive and run with that? i’ve had enough of the ‘they won’t think you’re american cuz of your face’ talk.
my mom came to america from russia when she was 16- she’s 72 now. she still has a strong accent and makes mistakes in grammar and spelling. she also had a successful 40 year career as an icu nurse cuz she knew her stuff and consequently saved many lives. 2 years ago she had someone say to her in a disparaging tone ‘why don’t you become a citizen’. she replied ‘i’ve been a citizen since before you were born’. do such remarks and attitudes annoy her? yes. do they stop her from getting what she wants and living her life? no.
as long as no one does violence to my mother or to my very chinese looking daughter out of anti-immigrant sentiment, i don’t care where strangers think they’re from. let’s set the esteem of strangers low on the list of our priorities and talk about freedom from violence, freedom of expression, etc. very soon we will come to the root of the matter. no prc control of taiwan! anyone in the kmt or dpp that can unite all the peoples of taiwan around that goal has my admiration. let’s name names. i only know one person in the dpp semi-well- zhang guo long, head of the taiwan epa. he has my highest respect. in the kmt, i also knew jian you xin- who struck me as conniving. is he up to anything these days? who are other good people in the dpp and kmt?
No the DPP as a whole is not. Some individuals within the party are. Ex. just because 1 guy in the Democratic Party is pushing for the draft (to make a statement) does not mean the Democratic party as a whole are pushing for the draft as well.
I also wonder about this obsession with the “Chinese past”. Your writings make you seem a bit race-centric/obsessed.[/quote]
No, it’s more of a cultural thing. With the exception of a trace of Aboriginal and Japanese influence, Taiwan is culturally Chinese. And a sizeable proportion of the population (my inlaws among them) refer to themselves as “Chinese”, not “Taiwanese”.
If we’re talking about “race”, let’s talk about how the DPP artificially distinguishes Taiwanese (i.e. benshengren), Hakka and “mainlanders” (i.e. waishengren) as races, despite all of them being ethnic Han. I see it in the writings of DPP-supporting students all the time: “Taiwan is a racially diverse country: we have Taiwanese, Hakkas, mainlanders and Aborigines.”
The US is a diverse place with a population from Europe, Africa, Asia and Latin America. We DO learn about our origins in school. And yes, American schools should teach more about world history.
“Taiwan for Taiwanese and those that care about Taiwan…”. You wrote as if this was a bad idea. If not Taiwanese and those that love Taiwan, then for who? The Chinese?[/quote]
Certainly, because a sizeable population here happen to be waishengren.
[quote]The Japanese? Everyone but the Taiwanese? How are they then screwing everyone else outside of Taiwan (I really don’t understand what you mean)?
I think the term Taiwan for Taiwanese is like saying America for Americans.[/quote]
It’s more like saying “Hawaii for the Hawaiians, too bad for the Haole”. Taiwan, after all, is de jure a province of China, at least that’s what it seemed as I was driving along Provincial Highway 9 following a car with Taiwan Province printed on his license plate, listening to a speech by James Soong, former Governor of Taiwan Province.
Or perhaps “America for those of British ancestry, screw everyone else.” You see, by “Taiwanese” here, of course I mean “benshengren” - those whose ancestors came here before 1895. The DPP’s rhetoric often goes counter to the interests of waishengren (the mainland evacuees from the Chinese Civil War and their descendants). The DPP is artificially recreating a rift between waishenren and benshengren, a rift that was understandable 50-odd years ago but is plain ridiculous now.
The DPP is replacing “Taiwan for waishengren” with “Taiwan for benshengren” (admittedly without the extremes of the old KMT’s oppression, but still, “benshengren” are the favored group) rather than “Taiwan for everyone”.
Honestly, I feel pretty sad for AC_Dropout, considering my close group of friends are very multicultural from diverse backgrounds. AC_Dropout must accept that there are other races and that other people can see him as equals, otherwise I find it difficult to believe he has it within himself to see others the same way.
Also I don’t think anyone is “stalking” AC_Dropout, I was making an educated guess judging by what he said in the past…
AC_Dropout’s English proficiency on the forums are pretty on and off; sometimes he’s doing terribly. Plus I still remember that time when he wrote about how his coworkers were advancing at Andersen Consulting while he didn’t. Obviously he felt his qualifications were above par so I guessed that maybe it was an accent issue or perhaps he didn’t pick up on social cues at the workplace? I honestly don’t know. But I certainly have a difficult time believing AC_Dropout’s claim that he was not promoted simply because he was Asian.
Financial and accounting firms are stock full of Asians, especially Chinese, especially at Andersen Consulting (now Andersen). If anything AC_Dropout might have even had an advantage.
But then this is all speculation. shrugs
v,
Politics doesn’t work that way in a party system. There is no way to support an individual within a party without advancing the party interest. If I support the Republican Party for their pro-business policy, I also must support the Republican Party for their anti-immigration position. That is the way politics works. The party interest over individual interest.
How does she know? She might have been denied an existence in America if not for her accent. That is the type of discrimination I’m referring to. The same type of discrimination Shrimpcrackers would practice against your mother for having an accent.
You have a really low expectation on life. Why should your accent speaking mother or Asian looking daughter be denial an existence afforded any other American? What makes them less authentic? Only an idiot would believe the drivel Shrimpcrackers subscribes to on who is an authentic American or Taiwanese.
As if Shrimpcrackers and people like him are in position to judge or exercise their will over others.
No the DPP as a whole is not. Some individuals within the party are. Ex. just because 1 guy in the Democratic Party is pushing for the draft (to make a statement) does not mean the Democratic party as a whole are pushing for the draft as well.
I also wonder about this obsession with the “Chinese past”. Your writings make you seem a bit race-centric/obsessed.[/quote]
No, it’s more of a cultural thing. With the exception of a trace of Aboriginal and Japanese influence, Taiwan is culturally Chinese. And a sizeable proportion of the population (my inlaws among them) refer to themselves as “Chinese”, not “Taiwanese”.[/quote]
Source Please. Recent surveys show that more than 70% of the population consider themselves Taiwanese first and foremost which have been pasted here and on the various Green leaning blogs that the locals here run (Taiwan Matters etc).
No it doesn’t. Some radical individuals might, but the party as a whole does not. As for being “ethnic Han” there are dozens of respected papers citing Chinese manuscripts that portray the local Taiwanese as barbarian cannibals as late as the 19th century. Taiwanese were not even considered “Han” until the late 1800’s. I also find it somewhat incredulous that hard core DPP supporting students would use the term “Mainlanders”.
The US is a diverse place with a population from Europe, Africa, Asia and Latin America. We DO learn about our origins in school. And yes, American schools should teach more about world history.[/quote]
Like I said, its skimmed over. Very quickly. Most of the focus is on American History and I don’t see you denying that. So why the double standards when it comes to Taiwan?
“Taiwan for Taiwanese and those that care about Taiwan…”. You wrote as if this was a bad idea. If not Taiwanese and those that love Taiwan, then for who? The Chinese?[/quote]
Certainly, because a sizeable population here happen to be waishengren.[/quote]
Actually approximately 14%. No offense but even the KMT tries to aim populist and has historically shown to be uncaring, even aggressive against “foreigners”. In fact its said that more “weisunren” were killed by the KMT. But again, its a term I see you using often. I personally don’t care about all this “weisunren/bunsunren” bullcrap.
[quote=“Chris”][quote]The Japanese? Everyone but the Taiwanese? How are they then screwing everyone else outside of Taiwan (I really don’t understand what you mean)?
I think the term Taiwan for Taiwanese is like saying America for Americans.[/quote]
It’s more like saying “Hawaii for the Hawaiians, too bad for the Haole”. Taiwan, after all, is de jure a province of China, at least that’s what it seemed as I was driving along Provincial Highway 9 following a car with Taiwan Province printed on his license plate, listening to a speech by James Soong, former Governor of Taiwan Province.[/quote]
Thats a wrong assertion, because here is what wikipedia says about Haole: In Hawaiian Pidgin, local is usually considered the opposite of haole. Local is an omnibus term for any non-white raised in Hawaiʻi, encompassing Hawaiians, part-Hawaiians, Japanese, Japanese-Hawaiians, Chinese, Chinese-Hawaiians. So you mean that DPP is only seeking to accommodate your “weisunren & bunsenren” but cares little for non-voting foreigners? How is that different from anywhere else on this planet?
Again, 14%, and in addition, the real rift seems to be more about unificationists versus anti-unificationists. I would like examples. Rhetoric is one thing, can you cite solid examples?
The DPP is replacing “Taiwan for waishengren” with “Taiwan for benshengren” (admittedly without the extremes of the old KMT’s oppression, but still, “benshengren” are the favored group) rather than “Taiwan for everyone”.[/quote]
How are the “benshengren” supposedly favored? Could you cite examples other than the usual visa problems in a post-9/11 and post 900 Chinese ballistic missile world?
How many WSR can you named appointed by the CSB administration to various positions?
[quote=“ac_dropout”]v,
Politics doesn’t work that way in a party system. There is no way to support an individual within a party without advancing the party interest. If I support the Republican Party for their pro-business policy, I also must support the Republican Party for their anti-immigration position. That is the way politics works. The party interest over individual interest.[/quote]
Not at all, you can vote for representatives that you think best represent your interests irrespective of party or membership. I many not be a Republican, but I did vote for Mayor Bloomberg (R) because I like more of his policies. Voting for Bloomberg hardly pushed the Bush agenda either.
How does she know? She might have been denied an existence in America if not for her accent. That is the type of discrimination I’m referring to. The same type of discrimination Shrimpcrackers would practice against your mother for having an accent.[/quote]
Pot calling the kettle black? You kept insisting that some of the newcomers to Forumosa, including I couldn’t read Chinese and putting it against me for the longest time, until of course you were proven wrong.
Keep in mind, a foreign accent is easily cured with schooling and practice. But I never have discriminated against someone just because they had a heavy accent. Keep in mind though, if people have a hard time understanding you AC, then yes there will be career problems in America since communication is key in the workplace, especially at a financial firm like Andersen.
You have a really low expectation on life. Why should your accent speaking mother or Asian looking daughter be denial an existence afforded any other American? What makes them less authentic? Only an idiot would believe the drivel Shrimpcrackers subscribes to on who is an authentic American or Taiwanese.[/quote]
Historically I’ve been paid more than my counterparts whom are not Asian. So are you implying that America treats Asians too well? My dear AC… everyone must rise above the glass ceiling, not whine incessantly below it.
Please, less hallucinogenics please, AC Dropout is the one clearly insisting that I must call myself Chinese, not whatever the heck I want to call myself. I’m Taiwanese. Live with it. I encourage everyone else to do their research and make up their own mind. Don’t let self-righteous punks try to make that decision for you.
To me, the idea of anyone with more than a third-grade education aligning themselves with either one of those bunches of inept clowns is ludicrous.
AC, your attitude is too victim-like. you have to fight for what you want and be grateful for what you have. life in american was eons better for my mother than post ww2 germany or stalinist/communist russia. her major impediment was not her accent (an accent is difficult to get rid of for many people), it was her gender. she won a scholarship and chose to be an engineer, but that university denied her because she was a woman. but now one of her daughters (not me) is a PhD research scientist. there has been progress because of struggle. why don’t you struggle to make taiwan better for other waishengren rather than think the answer lies in uniting with the prc? my expectations aren’t low- i just don’t think anyone should wait for the respect of strangers, which is such a trivial thing. PS a secret my mother and many holocaust survivors use(d) to be happy/successful in their lives: don’t be bitter.
How many WSR can you named appointed by the CSB administration to various positions?[/quote]
Let’s see… Tang Fei was made premier. Hao Longbin was made head of EPA… That’s what I can come up with without doing research at all.
I think it would be possible to come up with a few more, if you actually look.
Nice try. 
Mr. He,
Perhaps you should do a little more research then because Tang Fei was asked to resign. So I guess that shows you how much love CSB has for WSR.
v,
I’m hardly a victim. My situation is much different that your parents or grand-parents. Just struggling to survive is not something I had to deal with in a long time.
The question which I present which is relavent to both Taiwan and USA is “does there exist discrimination that deny an individual a fulfilling experience because of their background or racial apperance.”
I would say in the USA the situation is improving. I would say in Taiwan the situation is regressing.
ShrimpCrackers,
Once again you confuse the issue. Your vote for Bloomberg doesn’t mean you support the Bush aggenda. It means you support the Republican aggenda. That’s why gay marriage is not allowed in liberal NYC, because Bloomberg (ie. fake Republican) needs to toe some of the party lines.
Your identity is your issue. But like I mentioned before no one would considered you “Chinese” nor “Taiwanese” besides non-Chinese people because they don’t know any better.
The last time you demostrated your Chinese literacy skills, you posted up random articles and claimed they bashed the PRC. Perhaps after a few of years of intermediate Chinese in college you’re getting better.
Well, the lack of research is on your side, then.
Tang Fei was appointed by president Chen, and he resigned voluntarily, not due to his ethnicity, but due to the squabble over the fourth nuclear power plant.
Even you should know that.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]Mr. He,
I’m hardly a victim. My situation is much different that your parents or grand-parents. Just struggling to survive is not something I had to deal with in a long time. [/quote]
There’s always some amount of discrimination anywhere, but those are usually easy to elevate yourself from. Besides, these problems don’t seem to present themselves in the upper echelons of society anyway.
Not surprising because you barely have anything positive to say about Taiwan.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]ShrimpCrackers,
Once again you confuse the issue. Your vote for Bloomberg doesn’t mean you support the Bush aggenda. It means you support the Republican aggenda. That’s why gay marriage is not allowed in liberal NYC, because Bloomberg (ie. fake Republican) needs to toe some of the party lines.[/quote]
That’s sort of off the mark. First its obvious that even if Bloomberg came out with a crazy gesture allowing same-sex marriage it would still take many years in court to finalize. Plus Bloomberg has specifically said that he supports same-sex marriage. In addition even gay rights activists admit that the his appeal, asking for the Court of Appeals to see the case directly has fast-tracked the whole process which is very against what the Republican party generally wants.
How about Bloomberg’s other stances, like being Pro-gun control, Pro-Choice, and Anti-death penalty?
Again, voting for individuals within a party does not always support the general agenda for the party as a whole.