[HRM] Surnames for foreign-fathered kids

thanks for that. i’m going tomorrow so I guess we’ll see. I’ve found it helps just to smile and act really dumb and have a " i always rely on the kindness of strangers" attitude.

however the whole"having a baby" thing has made me a lot less accepting of things I think are wrong here. although the process was pretty smooth after we changed hospitals I did have to stand my ground a few times. it was remarkably easy to get results .

Heh. We’ve been round here before, so I’ll clarify:
IF your child is being registered as a Taiwanese citizen, then the law I outlined above applies (I forgot to mention the escape clause if your wife has no brothers, or you marry INTO your wifes family). You’ll probably need someone like Richard Hartzell to help you with a legal challenge to dispute this.
IF your child is not a Taiwanese citizen (i.e. applying for an ARC for him), then you can use your/your wife/your postman’s/anyones family name.

Mr. Hartzell. I have asked you so many times for advise or assistance and have been willing to pay, but as yet have heard no word from you at all. I wonder if you are capable of reading the many e-mails or PM’s that get sent to you, but I am desperately plighted and have tried every which way to get a hold of you, and you are not here to help. I don’t wish to be disrespectful, but I am now very frustrated and am faced with the prospect of hiring a lawyer that wants to charge me $4,ooo an hour.

All I want to do is register my son under his mother’s surname. You have told me this is possible through your other posts, but as yet neither you or the MI or the local registration offices have given me even the slightest clue as how this is possible.

I put it to you Mr Hartzell, that you perhaps, can’t help in this matter or are unwilling, or are otherwise too busy. In either of these cases though, I would sincerely love a reply. Does anyone know where Mr. Hartell is? I have been desperate for his advice for some time and am getting closer to being fined for not registering my son’s birth. Does Mr. Hartzell have an office number? A reliable contact address? Is there any way at all that I can get a simple yes or no from Mr. Hartzell?

My e-mail is: sulavaca at gmail.com
My telephone number: 0939 09 08 07

Please, please, please anyone help… I will be so grateful.

This was my post in another area of the site, but have just realized that it refers to this topic. Could anyone please help?

Sula,

Don’t give up. It is possible. My daugher is an ROC citizen and legally uses my wife’s Chinese surname, and also legally uses my English surname in her English name in her ROC passport and her name on her US passport, pretty much what we all wanted. We were fortunate that my wife does not have any brothers. We still had a lot of hoops to hop through to prove that she has no brothers and had a lot of problems getting the household registration to figure out exactly how to do it, but it was done. Other people have reported other strategies to use, and of course there is always the option of suing to change the law that Hartzell is in favor of. One thing that becomes abundantly clear in the face of bureaucracy is that the only way to win is to be more persistent.

As you say, fortunate, because your wife has no brothers. Mine does and so there is no provision in the lawfor our child to have his mother’s surname. Also, the law apparantly states that a foreigner may not change their name EVER! Although I was informed that it would be possible if we divorced. This is not an option for my wife for the obvious reasons.
The more I live here, the more I feel boxed in by the governments stupid and insulting laws. Why must it be this way? Taiwanese themselves object to these pathetic laws that never used to be in place.
It used to be that if the father and mother signed a letter of agreement with each other, then the child could change to the mother’s surname. Now that was a good idea, but has recently been scrapped and outlawed. WHY? Can anyone in the world answer as to why this is the case? No you can’t! I know you can’t cos it’s stupid. Just like the legislators employed.

Whoever told you that you can’t change your name is wrong. It is difficult, but possible. Do it at the Household registration office. Change your surname to be the same as your wife’s. It sucks, but it’s probably the only option.

Brian

[quote=“jlick”]Sula,

My daugher is an ROC citizen and legally uses my wife’s Chinese surname, and also legally uses my English surname in her English name in her ROC…[/quote]

I’ve been following this discussion for three pages and still can’t figure out why it is so important for people to give their offspring their wife’s surname.

When I first came to Taiwan (a looong time ago), some friends gave me the Chinese surname Luo (Lo, according to the way some folks spell it) based on my English name, and I have used it ever since.

When my kids were born, they got my surname, Luo, for their Taiwan birth certificates - and my English surname for their American birth registration. Their Taiwan ID cards and passports list them as Luo; their American passports and birth registration certificates use my English surname.

Where is the problem? What advantage would they have by using my wife’s surname (Chen) instead of Luo – absolutely none as far as I can see.

So, would someone please expalin to me why this is such an important issue, as I don’t seem to get what the fuss is about.

RJF

RJF, I can think of numerous reasons:

  1. It should be the right of parents to give their childrent he name of either father or mother. Anything else is sexist.

  2. Many foreigners feelt hat their Chinese name has no real meaning and history, as it was just something they chose or had bestowed on them, rather than passed down through the generations.

  3. Many foreigners may have a stupid surname that is a tranlitteration of their English name or something. They want their children to have a standard surname.

  4. For a mixed child with a foreign father and Taiwanese mother, it just makes a lot of sense to give them the English surname of the father and Chinese surname of the mother. That’s what I’d like to do.

Brian

I’ve been following this discussion for three pages and still can’t figure out why it is so important for people to give their offspring their wife’s surname. When I first came to Taiwan (a looong time ago), some friends gave me the Chinese surname Luo (Lo, according to the way some folks spell it) based on my English name, and I have used it ever since. When my kids were born, they got my surname, Luo, for their Taiwan birth certificates - and my English surname for their American birth registration. Their Taiwan ID cards and passports list them as Luo; their American passports and birth registration certificates use my English surname. Where is the problem? What advantage would they have by using my wife’s surname (Chen) instead of Luo – absolutely none as far as I can see. So, would someone please expalin to me why this is such an important issue, as I don’t seem to get what the fuss is about.[/quote]
What’s in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet…
I think there are couple of issues here. One is that men and women do not have equal treatment under the law on this issue, despite constitutional proclamations to the contrary. If I were an ROC woman, I would be very unhappy.

Second, most of us feel that our surname gives us a real connection with our ancestors and our family history. When the governent decides that only Chinese characters may be used to represent a name, that’s discriminatory. Aboriginals are now allowed to romanize their names in their native tongues, why can’t others? There’s no legal basis for it, as far as I can tell, since Taiwan does not even have, constitutionally-speaking, an official language. Third, Only 2 to 4 characters may be used to represent a western name that might be much longer, phonetically speaking, than the Chinese name assigned. Finally, the fact that there is no standard used in assigning a Chinese name rankles. If you do not have a Chinese name, they will randomly assign you one. There’s no guarantee that your name will be a Chinese “name” either. It could be some characters that represent phonetic sounds loosely related to your English name. It’s an almost whimsical process.

Brian, are you sure about that? I believe they changed the process (about 3 years ago?) so when you register your marriage on your wife’s household registration, they ask you to ‘officially’ take a Chinese name (i.e. you sign a document saying “I formally take this Chinese name xxx as my only Chinese name, signed xxx”). I suspect this makes it as hard to change your name as it is for a local to change their name (AFAIK a local cannot change their family name, but can change their given name).

If you have never signed this doc, then changing your name will be easier …

Maoman:

There is a legal basis for the requirement that you use a Han name. It’s legislation called the Name Act. Apparently other civil law countries have similar laws–Denmark being one. Native Taiwanese (aborigines) have a special exception because they are a sort of nation(s) with nation.

One reason you might want to use your wife’s surname is that your wife’s family might like to have another child in their line especially if they don’t have any male grandchildren and your child is a boy. For most westerners, this may not mean much, but it can mean a lot to older traditional Taiwanese. A friend of mine’s wife’s family was bitterly opposed to their daugter’s marriage although they came to accept it after the fact. Then when the first child (a boy) was born, and the family was told that the boy would take his mother’s surname, the parents were very moved and they have been very friendly and supportive since.

Now before anyone says anything, I agree that they were narrow-minded and should have been nice in the first place. But it was a small gesture for my friend, and it meant a lot to his in-laws.

Um, maybe not. When I signed the Household Registry thing the guy said that it would be very difficult to change my name after that. I was curious, so asked if it was possible. He said it was. Also, I thought Taiwanese could change their surname, but it was very difficult. Maybe I’m wrong about that though.

Brian

I read that just recently France allows chilldren to take their mother’s last name. Also that France used to limit your choice of first name, as Taiwan restricts your last name. Then again, France tries to control the words you use too. Sure glad we don’t suffer that here at forumosa.

-BigJim

My MIL changed her last name after she divorced, so it should not be posible for Taiwanese to change their names. She did not change back to her maiden name, just to a last name she liked.
Not that this information is much on topic though…

O.K. so here’s the update. This is relevant for foreign fathers that have a Chinese name on their family household certificate that does not match their wife’s; and they are trying to register their Taiwan born child as a Taiwan national.

Mr Hartzell called me the other day and we had a discussion on the latest pollicy on naming and put together all that we both know to date on what’s happening.
It’s quite simple really, but very frustrating. The most recent law states that a child, foreign or local, can only take the name of the father, unless the mother has no brothers, in which case it may take hers, as long as both parties are willing and sign a letter of consent. Even in cases where the father has eloped, the child may only take the father’s surname. This last one has made furious many single mothers and will most likely make the legislators re-think their pollicies on naming. Also there is pressure from people such as myself, that don’t believe that there is justification or relevance in this particular law.
I am informed by the MI that there will likely be a change in the law by the end of next year that will allow all people to change their names as they desire.
I have given up on the idea of going to court as it will likely take much time and money, and may only get a result by the time that the new law takes effect anyway.
Thanks for all your advice, and I hope this clears things up. Thank you Mr Hartzell for taking the time out to help with your knowledge and advice.

Jamie

[quote=“Feiren”]Maoman:

There is a legal basis for the requirement that you use a Han name. It’s legislation called the Name Act. Apparently other civil law countries have similar laws–Denmark being one. Native Taiwanese (aborigines) have a special exception because they are a sort of nation(s) with nation.
[/quote]

Actually the aborininals cannot use their own family names, they have to use the approved Chinese tranlsation for family names, so they all have Han Chinese family names. My wife is from the Cou Tribe and they all have to use Han Chinese surnames, and many of their given names have no translation and also cannot be used. So they end up having Chinese names on their ID cards.

My son can only use the Chinese name in Taiwan though, as he is not an ROC citizen.

I would suggest that you write the name you want to use in Chinese and English on the birth certificate. I wasl able to write 10 origiginals at the hospital where my son was born.

Then take said birth certificate to the houshold registration office… let them try to argue with the name of the child. Make sure you write the parents English and Chinese names on the B.C. as well.

I believe this was changed about three years ago, so that now they can have their traditional names.

Brian

I am just curious…I thought as foreigners we had the luxury of picking our own Chinese names…so why not just pick the same surname as your spouse and then register it? Please don’t mistake this for sarcasm, I am being serious here.

  1. We are/were not aware of the rules when we pick/get our Chinese name.
  2. We are single and/or change partner before we settle down with a spouse.

Apart from that, I can appreciate your thoughts.

The problem with names comes form the time you register the marriage.

As part of the registration process not only will they record your foreign name, but will also record a chinese name. What most registration offices do not ask is what name you want as they often just do a literal translation, plus they often forget the structure of our names is different to that of theirs, ie family name does not come first.

If your marriage is registered with an unusual chinese name and you then have kids then this is where the fun and games start as they will insist that the child uses that name.

Most countries have a policy of using the married couples family name which in most western socities would also be the husbands, so this is not anything unique to Taiwan, just a lot more difficult to change anything.