Hundreds of 1,000-year-old Taiwan red cypress found

I’m seeing lots of African blackwood out there, it’s on CITES list, and guys on Taobao doesn’t care about shipping it.

I am probably a bit jaded on the CITES. could go for years on that topic. Back wehn i was breeding animals and expirting in Canada i was fully on board and supportive. The measures they took actually worked much of the time. Always those that slip through but basically quite good.

Moving here and giving up the animal trade (moral reasons) and moving to plant based business i realised pretty quick the issues involved not just with different families but countries. You are totally rifht with Dalbergia species (rosewoods) . customs here does a decent job on small scale shipments. But large commercial stuff is a joke. Firstly taiwan follows cites but isnt technically recognized by cites as a country (typical political pussies). Thats not an issue for import as much as it is for export. Then we have this lovely corrupted product origin issue. Thankfully scum of the earth have places like singapore (and other stand up nations) to change all that.

Brianjones put it perfectly: Taiwan is a biological treasure chest for the world. So forms are cha ged, signed and moved on. Then when it gets here it is very easy to pass through. Usually due to paperwork looks good, so barely checked. Officials here are not experts in identification. In reality the quantity isnt large enough for them to justify hiring 3 guys (3x 8 hour shifts per day) to identify wood etc etc. Then there is corruption but perhaps surprisingly little compared to other controlled products. It is so easy to get things through that they dont need to bribe.

Taiwan also serves for a minor transport hub for logs. Illegal and legal alike.

Religious organisations are mostly the cause for in house demand. But export is also big.

Locally tree theft is huge. In reality, no o e cares here. Sad truth :frowning: when canada finally clamps down on old growth cedar and cypress, watch more and more taiwanese cypress getting mowed down.

It is truly saddening how little this fact is appreciated :frowning:

You should see China. I heard there’s huge trade in illegal ivory there.

Why can’t ivory be farmed? Do elephants only grow tusks once in their life?

The ultimate way to change nothing is point a finger at someone else. Yes, china is worse…but one might be shocked that taiwanese people are possibly more involved with actual on the ground illegal logging than china. Hard to say and no real numbers exist. But the fact it isnt known and based on population of both coubtries, kind of a dark spot on us.

Much of the wood gets sent there anyway.

2 wrongs dont make a right. Ivory poachin is fucking retarded. In the end, the supply only exists due to demand. No customers, no production. Buy responsible. Ignorance isnt an excuse in court, why is it with everything else?

That’s the problem with bans. Making it illegal only raises demand for stuff. The prohibition has shown that.

If we could find a way to farm ivory sustainably and without killing any endangered animal, why not?

I know a place in Smangus area even more spectacular than lalashan (lalashan is great but a lot has been closed off due to typhoons ) and when I visited there wasn’t even anybody around, but a little hesitant to promote it. :sunglasses: Really world class, special spot.

Says the guy selling Indian rosewood on here.:joy:
How about you sell sustainable stuff ?

Technology means this does not have to happen. If anybody is interested in looking at tech solutions I pretty much know the right people to talk to to get some concepts going . To start we need 24/7 remote sensors plugged into satellites or mobile networks. How do they log if these are present?
There has to be this level of protection for the forest giants. Nobody leaves piles of money sitting around eventually somebody is going to come along and try and Rob it.

I agree with your ideals. The issue is the government is NOT interested in it. I know these articles of police busts make it seem so…but it is not. I have dedicated a decade of my life to it going right into it, with mountain rats temes you name it. The gov is on board with them. The ancients trees they will make a show at the higher levels, but lower level gov assist in cutting. Its sickening.

@taiwan_luthiers i get your point and agree with you. Farm ivory all day if it works. But run the numbers based on cost/age/product and you very quickly see why it dieant happen. Just a simple fact.

Banning isnt really the goal, just diligence on registering. Its like gun control. Just have a sustainable system in place that is actually ENFORCED. Truthfully we dont need more laws in taiwan for forestry. There are already MORE than enough. There are just no balls enforcing them. There is big money and many people are murdered here over logs. Report that apple daily. Lazy f’s.

I don’t know any laws on ivory that isn’t an outright ban. The fact that it’s banned is why they’re so desirable in the first place.

You never tackle a problem by going after supply, because as long as demand exists, they will always find a supply.

There are probably legal pre-ban ivory but because they’re so desirable there’s lots of incentive to falsify paperwork and paper trails.

Either we stop associating ivory or old wood as some prized items or we find some way to fulfill the supply while protecting the viability of that resource, or we find alternatives that meets or exceeds the product that also doesn’t threaten its viability.

As long as ivory remain taboo and banned, elephants will be poached for them and no amount of regulation will stop that. The fact that it’s taboo and banned is most likely the reason why they’re so prized to begin with. Unfortunately with ivory it’s just the one thing that people want and even if something better comes along they will still want it, because it’s “exotic” and it stokes people’s ego about how much power they have. So I feel like the only real way to meet this demand without elephants getting killed is find a way to grow the stuff. I mean we could use stem cells to do all kinds of things why not use stem cell research to find a way to grow only elephant tusks? Maybe with a way to produce cheap cultured ivory then nobody would bother poaching elephants, and we’d probably want to exterminate them if their numbers gets too high.

Again, i basically agree with what you say. But what we are talking about in this thread is logging old growth treea. Not ivory. 1000 year old areas of mass land area to create vs a couple decades on smal land plots is very different.

My only point on ivory (start a new thread i am interested in discussing this one if you are) is the logistics of farmed dont add up. Hence the raping of the wild. In that sense is the only similarity between ivory and old growth timber.

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I understand your point…Obviously the Local enforcement will be very patchy in Taiwan. Local governments are often, though not always, terrible here.
However doing nothing is worse than anything.
I also understand the risk of violence here especially with these temple gangsters and criminals and illegals running around.
Still it’s not poaching African elephants risk levels and there’s plenty of private organizations doing things there.