Poor relations OK, but where in Europe except for France are “violent clashes” a “phenomenon”?
Maybe they are - after all, in the news websites I am frequently reading even those clashes in France are not reported much (if at all) nowadays…
olm: It depends upon how broadly you want to define it. Certainly I think the wake of the Danish cartoons would count. You could also include the situations of Theo Van Gogh or Pim Fortuyn. I believe there have also been violent clashes in some Italian towns with large numbers of immigrant workers, though I can’t recall whether those were immigrant workers in general or Muslim immigrant workers in particular. If I also recall correctly, certain parts of Malmo are no-go zones, even for the police.
So, based upon that list, we have at least the following: France, Denmark, Holland, Italy and Sweden.
Perhaps because the Protestant marching season in N. Ireland is an isolated event with relevance to a specific location (Ireland) while poor relations and violent clashes between European citizens and primarily Muslim immigrants is a continent wide phenomenon?[/quote]
Perhaps. Perhaps we’re simply used to it. Or the fact that there’s a decent political process in place takes the edge off.
Regardless, it’s easy to imagine the reaction if this story were about Muslim youth:
[quote=“Economist”]In nightly clashes many sparks flew upward, together with petrol bombs, bricks, golf balls and other missiles, as police clashed with rioters, especially in the republican Ardoyne district.
The rioters came off best. Although no serious civilian casualties were reported, more than 80 police officers were injured. Three were hit by shotgun pellets, and a female officer was badly hurt when a concrete block struck her on the head.
The sight of youths attacking officers and vehicles, in a manner described by the Belfast nationalist Irish News as “vicious” and “animalistic”, was televisually irresistible. Scenes of burning vehicles were enough to give casual viewers the impression that all of Belfast was in flames, and not just a small, tough part of it.
[…]
Residents typically know dozens of men who were killed and scores who were imprisoned for IRA offences. A plaque on a local wall bears the names of more than 120 people who died in the district, ranging from IRA members to old ladies mowed down by stray bullets during gun battles.
[…]
Most of this week’s disturbances involved teenagers, children as young as nine or ten eagerly joining in what is known as “recreational rioting”. For some, the annual July aggro is the most exciting event in their alienated young lives: they text their pals to come and join them.[/quote]
[quote=“Jaboney”]Regardless, it’s easy to imagine the reaction if this story were about Muslim youth:
What reaction is it easy for you to imagine? That it would get less press because some in the media are afraid of being branded Islamophobic if they give it too much attention?
Hard to imagine getting less attention than the N Ireland riots have.
I imagine the blogosphere and forums would light up with outrage over the ungrateful immigrants’ refusal to integrate, violence, and war on modernity and civilization.
In that particular case, It was obviously not a blunder, when a guy who just made a casino heist is shooting at policemen with military weapon, these policemen only did their job, that is shoot this dangerous individual.
If these middle-eastern and African descents are starting riots, it’s not because they think the policemen did a blunder, it’s actually because they consider the police, the french state and in general everything that comes from outside of their sh*t hole as an enemy gang. The Police ‘‘gang’’ just killed one of their own, no wonder now they say they want to have ‘‘revenge’’!
Now, for the first time, we are actually debating in France whether or not we should use the army.
In that particular case, It was obviously not a blunder, when a guy who just made a casino heist is shooting at policemen with military weapon, these policemen only did their job, that is shoot this dangerous individual.
If these middle-eastern and African descents are starting riots, it’s not because they think the policemen did a blunder, it’s actually because they consider the police, the french state and in general everything that comes from outside of their sh*t hole as an enemy gang. The Police ‘‘gang’’ just killed one of their own, no wonder now they say they want to have ‘‘revenge’’!
Now, for the first time, we are actually debating in France whether or not we should use the army.[/quote]
Insightful, as usual!
I guess they are just following the long french traditional of young men alienating themselves from mainstream society. You’ve given your immigrants a very bad example, no?
Of course not, this kind of rioting has been common for the last decades in France (we could almost say since 1962).[/quote]
i disagree, it’s either getting worst or the media are increasing the reports, i think the former
is it now?
due to???
and what exactly is a “poor suburb”???
jobs shouldn’t be handed over on a silver platter, there is employment available for all, all it takes is a bit of pride, staying in bed until 12 and spending the rest of the day sipping Pastis should be done only on holiday, those guys do it all year round…
social segregation, lol…
again, due to what? is there any laws or policies shoving them all in those suburbs?
would one of those families feel at ease in a “regular” neighborhood?
would YOU feel at ease moving to one of those towers??
what’s a harsh political approach??
only because more often than not they have their hands tied, dare they hit a “youth” or take another into custody the reppercussions would be massive
the police should be given much more power, and if the result is a few mishaps then be it
as JFP already pointed out, there is no blunder, only gratuitous violence and destruction
Of course not, this kind of rioting has been common for the last decades in France (we could almost say since 1962).[/quote]
i disagree, it’s either getting worst or the media are increasing the reports, I think the former
is it now?
due to???
and what exactly is a “poor suburb”???[/quote]
I meant by the poor suburbs “les cités”, I don’t have an English term for that. I thought it was obvious just by looking at the building themselves and the average income of people living inside them.
jobs shouldn’t be handed over on a silver platter, there is employment available for all, all it takes is a bit of pride, staying in bed until 12 and spending the rest of the day sipping Pastis should be done only on holiday, those guys do it all year round…
social segregation, lol…
again, due to what? is there any laws or policies shoving them all in those suburbs?
would one of those families feel at ease in a “regular” neighborhood?
would YOU feel at ease moving to one of those towers??
what’s a harsh political approach??[/quote]
I never said jobs should be distributed for free to anybody, I just truly believe that there is a serious imbalance of the chances to get a job depending on your origin and the color of your skin in France, all other things being equals. And assuming that people are at ease when they live in the neighborhood with the worst conditions in a country is a really undefendable argument. Review the Maslow’s hierarchy of needs.
only because more often than not they have their hands tied, dare they hit a “youth” or take another into custody the reppercussions would be massive
the police should be given much more power[/quote]
They are overwhelmed because they have the task to solve this problem alone. Police is the only solution from the government, that’s not the purpose of police, it ends up in a disaster. It’s like asking the ministry of education to solve the financial crisis. Aberrant.
Now I’m shocked. You’re talking about human beings, not pest.
as JFP already pointed out, there is no blunder, only gratuitous violence and destruction[/quote]
I recognize I misused the word. However these violence and destruction are not gratuitous, they have some real causes. These people are not born evil, hoping to kill every cop on earth. They are just born in a vicious circle environment of poor access to quality education, poor access to quality employment, and so on.
By the way, I strongly recommend this French movie on the subject:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113247/
There are no people born evil, but I think those who now are starting riots didn’t receive enough slap in the face when they were kids!
French people were too soft with them, didn’t force them to integrate into the society, because of the feeling of guilt over french colonization.
[quote=“JFP”]There are no people born evil, but I think those who now are starting riots didn’t receive enough slap in the face when they were kids!
French people were too soft with them, didn’t force them to integrate into the society, because of the feeling of guilt over french colonization.[/quote]
Perhaps that “guilt” was a factor in the past. Does this really appear to be a factor now?
It appears the opinion of the general public has changed. Les Flics are not generally known for their mild temperaments.
A count I’ve seen, included in a linked story, places “no-go areas” at 750 or so now around France. Denial of services such as this affect all of the residents in these areas.
Of course the daily dosing from the Imans has greatly contributed to the poor attitudes of the unruly ‘youths.’
That’s why it’s a vicious circle. Even if you slap them now and force them to achieve better integration, is it really possible to do so in practice for them? When a place is a “no-go” for outsiders, it’s usually a “no-leave” for the insiders too.
I support France’s right to implement SB1070.
Viva la France
SaddleTramp -
Good one!
Course there ain’t nothing I could say that wouldn’t get the pc crowd panties knotted up…
[quote=“JFP”]There are no people born evil, but I think those who now are starting riots didn’t receive enough slap in the face when they were kids!
French people were too soft with them, didn’t force them to integrate into the society, because of the feeling of guilt over french colonization.[/quote]Too many slaps in the face, too little integration, too few jobs… Check those marvelous studies on call back rates for employment interviews where applicants have identical qualifications but different ethnic names. Maybe more a case of French society not being forced to integrate those who wanted in.
A scenario guaranteed to engender hatred, distrust and retaliation in the future.
“Forcing” an established society to bend to the whims of a segment that refuses to adapt its ways and customs is a poorly thought out plan.
Who said they refuse to adapt? They are quite well adapted everywhere else in Europe (more than in France, at least).
A scenario guaranteed to engender hatred, distrust and retaliation in the future.
“Forcing” an established society to bend to the whims of a segment that refuses to adapt its ways and customs is a poorly thought out plan.[/quote]
QFT Cowboy.