[quote=“tommy525”]Obviously I don’t support execution unless the crimes are grave and the persons is guilty beyond virtually all doubt. Not just reasonable doubt.
There was one high profile case where someone executed did not do the crime. IIRC it was an Air Force person convicted of killing a girl. HE was later proven to be innocent. The ones that found him guilty escaped all punishment.
So yes, there must be certainty.[/quote]
江國慶 Chiang Kuo-ching was his name. A 5-yr-old girl was raped, mutilated, and killed on an air force base, and in order to cover their own asses and pretend they had any control over their military, officials framed Mr. Chiang. He was executed, and later exonerated. I’m sure his ghost is happy about that, but tell it to his grieving parents.
The morality of the death penalty aside, I think we can all agree that it should never be carried out on the wrong person. Taiwan’s justice system as it stands does not fill me with confidence that they will get the right person, and I would much rather have 1,000 killers rotting in jail than have even one more Chiang Kuo-ching.
[quote=“Taiwan Luthiers”]Well either way your life is screwed whether you get death or life or 15 years. Even if they exonerate you years and years later what’s that going to do? Your life is effectively ruined in any case. We’re not talking about people wrongly convicted, and while I don’t believe that anyone has the right to kill anyone because of his crimes, what do we do with people who there is absolutely no question of his guilt, he is unlikely to ever reform, and is a danger to society? Should the government spend millions of dollars to keep this person locked away forever? It’s more humane to simply kill him instead of locking him in a cell the rest of his life, where he might actually escape and cause more harm to the society. Already in the EU people only get 15 years at the most for horrible crimes like mass murder. In fact that guy who killed 70 people in Norway is only getting something like 22 years in prison because there is no death penalty in nearly all EU countries (and they have a maximum prison term, there is no such thing as life without parole). How would the family of the victim feel that this person could one day be free to terrorize the population again?
Also since there is already a rather high profile case of wrongful execution in Taiwan (it was a military tribunal), it isn’t something any prosecutor wants on his conscience. Unlike some less developed countries where they might just be looking for someone to punish and will convict someone even if his innocence is clear based on available evidence.[/quote]
Exonerated means later found innocent. Not let go because of compassion or clemency or anything like that, but let go because they didn’t do it. 1 in 7. Yet at the time of conviction, there was no doubt about guilt. It’s only later that it’s found that they’d got the wrong guy. Yes, the guy’s life has been ruined but better to be ruined and alive than ruined and dead.
[quote=“tommy525”]Obviously I don’t support execution unless the crimes are grave and the persons is guilty beyond virtually all doubt. Not just reasonable doubt.
There was one high profile case where someone executed did not do the crime. IIRC it was an Air Force person convicted of killing a girl. HE was later proven to be innocent. The ones that found him guilty escaped all punishment.
So yes, there must be certainty.[/quote]
tommy, there is no concept in law of EXTRA CERTAINTY. You are found guilty by the evidence or you are not. How would you ensure extra certainty? A confession? Fine, then the police will ensure that they always get one.
To make things clear right to begin with, I am against capital punishment and I can’t believe to find such a mainstream opinion on a teachers forum.
We are partially responsible for which path human lives take. We should not concern ourselves with finding a permanent solution when things have gotten wrong.
What gray areas are you talking about? There is no gray in the US. Everyone knows this. It’s either, black or white.
The victim always is the angel, the beautiful wife, the loving father, the hero etc. and the convict is the devil.
Capital punishment supports social unfairness and doesn’t prevent, at least statistically, not a single murder.
Let’s take a look at the famous OJ. Simpson case for example.
In a country without the death penalty, the prosecution had achieved a confession within days.
It would have been difficult for OJ to find a defense team that he can truly trust.
In the US it’s about saving a life and OJ Simpson is a living being, therefor the defense team will do everything possible to achieve an acquittal.
After that the person who killed your loved one can laugh into your face. That would not be possible in a country without the death penalty and harsh sentences.
You could just take a stick and hit him to death. Then get 3 to 5 years in jail and be out after 2.
In the US you’d face death penalty.
You are the devil and the person that killed your son, daughter or wife is the angle.
Those that are proven beyond reasonable doubt to be guilty of certain particularly heinous crimes can be executed, in my book.
The fact that some people cheated justice by buying it doesnt mean that it is right.
Everyone in the USA felt OJ was guilty , except the members of the jury.
I think OJ is still in prison on other charges and the lawyer that got him off is dead FAIK. So maybe in a way, theres Karma to deal with even if you got off in a peoples court.
[quote=“tommy525”]Those that are proven beyond reasonable doubt to be guilty of certain particularly heinous crimes can be executed, in my book.
The fact that some people cheated justice by buying it doesnt mean that it is right.
Everyone in the USA felt OJ was guilty , except the members of the jury.
[color=#FF0000]I think OJ is still in prison on other charges and the lawyer that got him off is dead FAIK. So maybe in a way, theres Karma to deal with even if you got off in a peoples court.[/color][/quote]
For the very rich like in this case there’s karma. A quick strike with a hammer and a short jail time had been far less troublesome for the remaining family though.
As a comparison, take the Norwegian mass murder case Behring Breivik. Behring Breivik pleaded innocent.
If I had been the judge in a fantasy world, I had said, " right, you are a hero and deserve to be set free".
I even had shown him the way out of the cord room through the front door, patted him on his shoulder and send this freak out onto the street.
In his case, it then becomes very clear that the question is not…Is Behring Breivik ready to be released into the society? The question is… Is society ready for him?
Anyone of those family members, 77 times the whole family, would have the opportunity to set things right.
[quote=“tommy525”]Obviously I don’t support execution unless the crimes are grave and the persons is guilty beyond virtually all doubt. Not just reasonable doubt.
There was one high profile case where someone executed did not do the crime. IIRC it was an Air Force person convicted of killing a girl. HE was later proven to be innocent. The ones that found him guilty escaped all punishment.
So yes, there must be certainty.[/quote]
Not only that, but the NEXT guy they convicted for it (who was mentally challenged) was also found to be innocent last month!
Most people who support the death penalty say that as long as there is 100% proof then it is OK. But even in cases with 100% proof (witnesses, video records, DNA, confessions), one can never conclude that a person is 100% responsible.
Now if this guy had acted upon his desires and raped an underage girl, then some people might have put him for a death penalty. Had that happened before the age of MRIs then he would have been killed and that would have been the end of that. However, it turned out that he wasn’t responsible for his desires and his condition was treatable.
Now anyone who is a paedophile is very likely pretty fucked up in the head. However, there is never any way of knowing whether those desires are simply due to faulty internal wiring that could be, sometime in the future, be discovered and treatable. Execute any one of those guys and you’re not executing people for being evil. You’re executing them for drawing short straws in the game of genetics.
That’s a different argument and Im not sure if its our responsibility to forgive people because the were born fucked up.
I would like people to respond to me with the case of TWO innocent people being framed for the same case, one of whom was executed, the other let out just last month after his confession did not match details of the case?
Get down to specifics of death penalty and Taiwan. What say ye?
Fact is people with those kind of problem, like a brain tumor causing them to go on a killing rampage (like Charles Whitman) are a danger to the society. While it is unfortunate that it was a disease causing them to do this they (or their family) could have sought treatment if they were aware of it. Perhaps they can be found not guilty by reason of insanity and sent to a mental hospital but they cannot be left out there with that condition.
It is the same as having an animal put down after it has gored a person to death, because there’s a good chance it will do it again.
Incarceration does the same. It keeps dangerous people from society.
And how can anyone seek treatment if they’re not aware of what is ruling their motivations.
The only thing that incarceration does not do as well as execution is in giving victims retribution for crimes. I personally think that desire for revenge is an awful justification for killing innocent people, of which many convicts indubitable were.
To play devil’s advocate here, if an 18-year-old commits a horrible crime and has no chance of rehabilitation or parole, what good will it do to put him/her in prison for some 70 years?
The Western governments especially the EU are full of hypocritical crap. Bin Lade was killed without being on trial, the UK can kill Iraqis and claim its only collateral damage, and yet they can go around and accuse Taiwan of being barbaric for executing its arsonists and mass murderers.
For those who did not know, all six convicted felons committed multiple homicides. One man lit a fire to a Tainan hotel in 1985 and burned 28 to death because he failed to court the receptionist. He was only caught days prior to the statute of limitation expiration date. Another convict killed his first wife, second wife, 3 sons, and 1 insurance saleswoman just so that he can collect 22 million NTs worth of life insurance. These fuckers deserve life in prison?
Maybe Taiwan can send them to Norway instead, they would be out killing Norwegians in no time.