Want to know why?
Skip the first 30 seconds and see at what price milk is produced.
Looks like I’m going soy from now on. :s
Great. Now I gotta give up women, too. 
That was a very ugly video but it’s not that bad everywhere. Where I come from (and it’s not the best part of the world) dairy farms have huge pastures where cows can walk freely during the day. In all developed countries there are very high quality standards for milk which means that you won’t be able to sell the milk of sick cows. All the big farm animals (cows, sheep, goats) are numbered and get a health check in order to make the dairy farm legal - and god knows there’s not a very big market for illegal milk. 
The same goes for slaughtering animals. You can’t sell your sick cow for meat - at least not in the EU for sure. There are quality standards for all that stuff. Of course, killing healthy cows isn’t much better sight… I’ve never seen it done, so I don’t know how it works.
I understand your concern and I am sure the horrid video was for real, but… it’s not the case everywhere. Did you understand what language the people spoke on the auction? I tried, but didn’t understand.
I tried going vegan years ago, but got worried about the apparently weakened state of my teeth. Then I changed to low-dairy, occasional fish. I do think milk is overrated - you don’t need to be drinking glass after glass of the stuff.
Perhaps a wise option.
The cruelty would be drastically reduced if demand wasn’t so high, and unfortunately we aren’t treating ourselves any better than the livestock - we’re forcing an unnatural diet on ourselves, one that has a detrimental effect in the long term: too much meat, too much dairy, too much sugar, and too much fat. And we overindulge in all these things because of marketing. The Japanese, who live longer than any other nationality, eat a diet very low in meat other than fish - a big clue as to what we should be eating.
Furthermore, many of the scariest viruses to hit mankind in recent history sprung up as a direct result of inhumane, overcrowded livestock rearing practices: SARS from civet cats forced to live in unnaturally close quarters; avian flu from overcrowded chicken farms; mad cow disease from grossly unnatural bovine diets; etc.
It seems that we simply should not be eating as much meat and dairy products as we are currently; it’s not healthy and it’s not natural - and nature is making that very clear.
We should all cut down.
[quote=“Notsu”]That was a very ugly video but it’s not that bad everywhere. Where I come from (and it’s not the best part of the world) dairy farms have huge pastures where cows can walk freely during the day. In all developed countries there are very high quality standards for milk which means that you won’t be able to sell the milk of sick cows. All the big farm animals (cows, sheep, goats) are numbered and get a health check in order to make the dairy farm legal - and god knows there’s not a very big market for illegal milk.
The same goes for slaughtering animals. You can’t sell your sick cow for meat - at least not in the EU for sure. There are quality standards for all that stuff. Of course, killing healthy cows isn’t much better sight… I’ve never seen it done, so I don’t know how it works.
I understand your concern and I am sure the horrid video was for real, but… it’s not the case everywhere. Did you understand what language the people spoke on the auction? I tried, but didn’t understand.[/quote]
American auction slang … and that’s the way it goes in the states …
I’ve been in many dairy farms stables and never have seen it going this way … normally sick cows are destroyed, incinerated or made into feed or product not for human consumption … you know accidents happen … even to humans … and most farmers take good care of their lifestock because it’s their income.
And another truth is that when you’re at the right spot on the right time and focus on that you can make people believe anything what is shown on camera and generalize it …
Concerning the calfs it is true that their are fed a special diet that mostly concists of milk and milk powders to keep their meat from turning red, but milk is for calfs … and they are normally slaughtered between 6 and 12 months, because after that they are not calfs anymore and their meat is considered beef …
Yes that video disgusted me, however you can buy organic milk where the cows are not treated like that, cost a bit more but worth it. As for your comment about what people are eating, well I have to disagree. Different groups of people do well different groups of food. Through evulotion people have developed the ability to eat different foods including milk. That is why some people are lactose intolerant and some people aren’t. Those that aren’t should feel free to drink milk with no ill effects. Generally we are all built the the same and have the same system, but some of the foods I ate in Asia had consequences for me and not for other people that ate them. It doesn’t mean their bad, just that I should eat that certain food or spice etc. Back onto topic though, I do not condone raising meat or dairy animals in that way, thats sick, and the cow was still alive when they hung it to bleed.
I grew up on a dairy farm. I don’t drink cow puss. It stinks.
The cups can fall off and suck up piss and shit instead of sucking on the cows teats. That’s the good part. It gets worse from there.
Soy takes a few days to get used to and then it is really hard to go back to the animal excretion.
where?
In NZ I have personally visited plenty of dairy farms and it is as humane as it could get. In fact, the cows roam freely in lush green pastures and in most cases voluntarily walk to the milking shed at the same time everyday.
While I do respect each person’s reason for being a vegetarian or vegan or whatever, it annoys me that extreme cases of cruelty are used to justify a cause.
Depending on what you believe, it can be strongly argued that certain animals were created for certain purposes suchs as chicken -> eggs, cows -> milk etc…and I am not referring to the slaughter of them for meat.
It’s not the concept that is wrong, it is the method, and revelation of extreme methods are being used out of context.
On a different but related note about misinformation. When I once went to the Eden Project in Cornwall, England, At a cork tree, I was reading a study about cork in wine bottles. Basically there is a fair bit of belief that using cork trees to bottle wine is somehow archaic and not environmental. What is happening is that synthetic alternatives are now being touted to “save the trees”. The reality is that the cork tree responds very well to it’s bark being harvested in such a way, and regenerates nicely.
But as a result of the misinformation, the world is now disposing of more and more non-biodegradable cork substitutes while the cork tree industry is winding down with losses of jobs in certain towns that previously relied on cork.
Environmental? No. Money? Yes.
I guess my point is that humans are animals too and I’d to see some more mutually beneficial approaches overall rather than knee-jerk reactions based on isolated cases or unfounded ideas.
I am sure there are some cases where the wave of pro-vegetarian is resulting in more animal deaths and more mistreatment of animals used to harvest vegetarian food. So then what?
[quote=“Truant”]
I am sure there are some cases where the wave of pro-vegetarian is resulting in more animal deaths and more mistreatment of animals used to harvest vegetarian food. So then what?[/quote]
I’m quite unclear as to how any animals would be mistreated in the production of vegetarian food, since it pretty much doesn’t involve any animal products whatsoever.
I’m assuming by that, that you’re using the argument that vegetarians “kill” a whole bunch of field mice, other rodents and birds when using combine harvesters to harvest grain type foods.
Well, regardless of whether you eat meat or not, you’re on some level a participant in this killing. However, a huge percentage of the grain foods grown in the world today does not go towards feeding humans, but feeding animals raised for meat. Feeding the animals which we slaughter to provide meat for us requires a far greater amount of grain than if we were to cut out the grain use for animal feed and solely use it for human consumption.
Therefore, the etchical vegetarian is faced with 3 choices: 1) forget about being vegetarian and eat meat, thereby being a participant in not only the slaughter of livestock for meat but also the inevitable deaths of field rodents used to feed said livestock and whatever grain products you consume, or 2) remain vegetarian and accept the deaths of rodents (the nu,ber of which would be far less than a person who eats meat and thus consumes far greater grain costs) as a necessary evil or 3) eat nothing and die of starvation.
Also, cows and chickens were not, in my belief, created for their eggs/milk. A chicken is a bird, and like any other bird, lays eggs to reproduce and continue the perpetuation of its species. It’s mankind’s intervention into nature and the progression of agriculture that has created the demand for eggs. I’m not saying that it’s not natural to eat eggs. Sure, if we were all still hunter-gatherers living in forests. And for free range egg farming is fine too. But, it’s not natural to cram a bird into a cage that it can’t even move around in, pump it full of hormones, burn off most of its beak so that it can’t peck itself or other chickens in the cramped conditions, and force it to spend its entire life in this tiny space just laying eggs day in and day out.
And cows were certainly not created to produce milk. They are kept in a permanent state of lactation by constantly being impregnated, and giving birth. The calves are generally sluaghtered to become veal. Certainly not a natural state of affairs, although whether you think it’s cruel or not is a matter of personal opinion.
I didn’t become a vegetarian because of a knee-jerk reaction to some video I saw on the internet, and I’m sure most vegetarians have also asked a lot of questions and done a lot of research before making such a major change to their lives.
Trapjaw,
some hasty comments in there from me not worded very well.
I fully support everybody’s right to choose what they eat, and some of my closest friends these days are vegatarians or vegans - all with various reasons for doing so. I am pleased you have made a well informed decision, however I do know some people that have made their decision primarily based on shocking propaganda doing the rounds.
That is not the discussion I was intending, but to point out there are extreme examples of poor human behavior when it comes to the treament of animals. Depending on what you believe determines what exactly you’d define as poor treatment, including harvesting techniques.
You are right, it is all about ethics and all of these issues can be taken to the nth degree.
Leather, for example, is a wonderful material which I see many of my vegetarian friends using. Is that ethical? But to use a synthetic version? What is the impact on the the earth, the atmosphere etc?
Is it right for developing countries to still use buffalo to plow crop fields, or should the buffalo be free to live a life of their own? What about children working on the farms in these countries instead of getting an education? Is that ethical? Are we doing something about that?
Regarding your points about chickens and cows. I earlier mentioned that some of the methods being used to harvest the by-products are inhumane (and you have no argument from me there), but I don’t believe that means the concept should be tossed aside as a result.
I think the best ethical solution for the sake of the animals is your option 3: Not eat and die of starvation.
But wait - isn’t that animal abuse to starve a living thing to death? Surely we wouldn’t let humans die of starvation in 2006 would we?
[quote=“trapjaw”]
Also, cows and chickens were not, in my belief, created for their eggs/milk. A chicken is a bird, and like any other bird, lays eggs to reproduce and continue the perpetuation of its species. It’s mankind’s intervention into nature and the progression of agriculture that has created the demand for eggs. I’m not saying that it’s not natural to eat eggs. Sure, if we were all still hunter-gatherers living in forests. And for free range egg farming is fine too. But, it’s not natural to cram a bird into a cage that it can’t even move around in, pump it full of hormones, burn off most of its beak so that it can’t peck itself or other chickens in the cramped conditions, and force it to spend its entire life in this tiny space just laying eggs day in and day out.
And cows were certainly not created to produce milk. They are kept in a permanent state of lactation by constantly being impregnated, and giving birth. The calves are generally sluaghtered to become veal. Certainly not a natural state of affairs, although whether you think it’s cruel or not is a matter of personal opinion.
I didn’t become a vegetarian because of a knee-jerk reaction to some video I saw on the internet, and I’m sure most vegetarians have also asked a lot of questions and done a lot of research before making such a major change to their lives.[/quote]
That about the chickens is very interesting now that it’s mentioned … did you know that ‘cage’ chickens produce a healthier egg than free range chickens … and it depends on the ruling of a specific country when they are in ‘cramped’ housing … in Holland, maybe in the whole of the EU you can only put 5 chickens in the same size cage as where in the USA they put 7. If the conditions, environment, noise etc … are right for a chicken they won’t peck each other, when the food is controled and they have enough water, it’s clean than your cage egg is almost free of salmonela contrary to a free range chicken that can eat and drink everything that’s on the ground … they can even get ‘Birdflu’
Eggs are used in thousands of food products, how could you control where they come from …
And from what I recently learned is that vegetarians when over 40-45 are starting to lose muscle mass, even when exercising … due to lack of carnitine which is to my knowledge only in sufficient amounts present in animal products … taking supplements? Probably, but than you need to be 100% sure it’s not from animal sources …
bodybuildingforyou.com/healt … nitine.htm
(PDF file) lonza.com/group/en/company/n … arians.pdf
On another note … eating chocolate mousse? In most of it in Taiwan they use gelatine … or eggs as is done in europe or both … they don’t always use the vegetarian type of gelatine due to cost consideration.
So how can you be sure you never ever eat anything that’s animal based …
BTW, my opinion on the Taiwanese version of vegatarian food is that it’s not the most healthy one … lot’s of hydrogenated fat’s and oils and gluten and other stuff that is not very high in vitamins and minerals … don’t forget the MSG
What I want to say is that you need to be careful what you eat being vegetarian or not … and forget fighting the meat industry or any part of the food industry, we can’t win the war … they have better funding than most of us … it’s the $$$ that counts not always animal wellfare … we started it and we can’t wipe it out even as we know some of it is not right …
The balnced answer to all of these arguments is that we all should be eating less meat and dairy products than we currently do. It’s only in recentyears we have eaten as much as we do, and it is not having a positive impact in our health.
Our ancient ancestors didn’t eat as much meat as we do; when they examine the stomach contents of well-preserved Mayan mummies or of those preserved in peat or ice, it shows grain and vegetable matter, not meat. We are primarily fruit, veg, and grain eaters, with the occasional kill, which the whole group comes together to partake in - kind of like the diet of chimpanzees, our closest relatives.
If we consumed less meat, we would all be healthier, we could feed the world’s population adequately, and we would not need to employ inhumane (cruel) animal rearing/farming methods.
Then we wouldn’t have to be concerned about the animal fat in our chocolate bars or the leather in our wallets, as it would have come from animals that lived a natural, healthy life before being humanely killed for our own (occasional) consumption - as nature intended.
Makes sense to me.
Truant, I’m glad to hear you support whatever decision people make with regard to their own diet. And yeah, with any philosophical/ethical debate it is possible to take things to the nth degree, which many people do in order to try to discredit vegetarians - many people, for whatever reasons they have, upon hearing that someone is a vegetarian, immediately try to show them how unhealthy/hypocritical/unethical/stupid/naive it is not to eat eat meat. Why, I have no idea, but I’ve experienced it plenty of times, I’ve had just about every pro-meat argument there is thrown at me, and obviously, countered every one since I still stand by my principles.
Some people just really seem to hate the idea of vegetarianism, or feel that because someone is a vegetarian for ethical reasons, that the vegetarian is thus “judging” them because they eat meat, which I don’t do (and I’m sure most vegetarians wouldn’t do). The vast majority of my friends are meat eaters, and I don’t judge or look down on them in any way.
belgian pie- I know that the war can’t be won, and there’s little one person can do against a titan like the meat industry, but that doesn’t mean one shouldn’t try, even by such a small and simple action as refusing to be part of it. Throughout history, there have been cases of single people standing up for what they believe in, even though the cause seemed hopeless. If it weren’t for people like that, no good changes would have ever ocurred throughout human history - if not, the institution of slavery, for example, might still be thriving today.
As for that carnitine stuff, I’ve never heard of it… interesting that that website that says it’s essential has links to selling the supplements, don’t you think?
Anyone who still believes the stereotype that vegetarians/vegans are pale, weak, unhealthy and sickly people should try googling “vegan bodybuilding”. There are plenty of guys who eat nothing but plants who really don’t look like they are missing any muscle mass.
[/i]
[quote=“trapjaw”]
belgian pie- I know that the war can’t be won, and there’s little one person can do against a titan like the meat industry, but that doesn’t mean one shouldn’t try, even by such a small and simple action as refusing to be part of it. Throughout history, there have been cases of single people standing up for what they believe in, even though the cause seemed hopeless. If it weren’t for people like that, no good changes would have ever ocurred throughout human history - if not, the institution of slavery, for example, might still be thriving today.
As for that carnitine stuff, I’ve never heard of it… interesting that that website that says it’s essential has links to selling the supplements, don’t you think?
Anyone who still believes the stereotype that vegetarians/vegans are pale, weak, unhealthy and sickly people should try googling “vegan bodybuilding”. There are plenty of guys who eat nothing but plants who really don’t look like they are missing any muscle mass.
[/i][/quote]
I know it sounds strange but it’s true … after age 40-45 eating no meat or even cutting back to much is not good for your muscle mass (including heart) if not taking supplements.
I am putting my vegan aspirations on hold for the time being. I suddenly have a craving for Lurpak butter
no offence stray dog but I wouldn’t be using peat mummies as examples of good nutrition. If you are going to use that route you will notice that with an increase in the availability of different foods there has been an increase in life expectancy. Also tests done on different groups of people showed that hunter and gatherer societies were in better health than early farming societies. Now its true that these people didn’t eat meat quite like us, but I would say our condiment intake has a lot to do with our declining health rather than the consumption of meat. I do agree that our portion sizes need to be cut down, but for most people that is in every food group except for fruits and veggies. Also evolutionary wise grains were pretty much the last food group to be incorporated into our diets and the grains we are eating now are nothing like what our ancestors had, which is not necessarly a bad thing. I think the most important thing we can do for this planet and all the living things on it is to cut back on consumerism, which causes pollution, takes up land and is responsible for the deaths of many animals. It would also allow us to better treat the animals we do have for meat and such. I would also love to know what you vegetarians out there are feeding your dogs.
People can argue with all the facts, research and historical figures that they want, but I believe what I see. And my mother’s friend, a lifelong vegetarian, lived to the ripe old age of 89 or 90 (at which she was still very mentally sharp), without any major health complications such as people seem to think. The oldest person in the world was a vegetarian. Recent studies have shown that seventh day adventists have life expectancies 4-10 years above average - they are vegetarians for religious reasons, and also don’t smoke or drink(?). If being a vegetarian is associated with all these health risks like “losing muscle mass and heart problems”, how the hell are these people living so long??
I’m not saying meat is unhealthy, although plenty of vegetarians probably think so. I don’t eat meat for ethical reasons, not health reasons. I’m just saying that a vegetarian diet is NOT unhealthy, if, like any diet, it is balanced and combined with regular exercise.
Woudsprite… What are vegetarians feeding their dogs? Google “vegetarian dogs” and you will see that there are plenty of vegetarians who don’t use meat-based dog food, with very healthy dogs to show for it. Otherwise, that’s just yet another nit-picking attempt to discredit what some people are at least making some kind of effort to do, even if they’re not 100% focused in their goal.
Anyone else who feels like attacking more little points, let me refer you to this verse, said by a famous teacher. It goes something like this: “before you remove the speck from your brother’s eye, first remove the plank from your own”.
Actually the famous Teacher was Jesus Christ, as quoted in Matthew 7 here: (some fairly appropriate other points in there too)
[quote=“The Bible”] 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.[/quote]