I like to teach English in Taiwan

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
21

Singapore: multiculturalism has a lot to do with it.

Taiwan needs a team of expat, experienced, qualified, and successful teacher trainers given carte blanche by the MoE to go forth into state schools and review the whole system. However, I fear the stuffed suits at the MoE will not relinquish their power over English teaching to a bunch of foreigners, no matter how good their credentials.

So, why not make Scott Thornbury, Jeremy Harmer, Jim Scrivener, and Adrian Underhill (names out of a hat) an offer they can’t refuse ? Come to Taiwan, on a fat expat deal, and put Taiwan at the top of the Asian English language league. Build up a team of teacher trainers to train local elementary and high school teachers, and then leave a supervisor in place when it’s all done. The students win, the teachers win (no-one is taking their jobs away), and Taiwan wins. Would it really cost that much ? No. But the buxiban industry would be fucked. Now go figure which is more important to the MoE - the buxiban industry, or Taiwanese kids.

22

[quote=“someguy44”][quote=“mod lang”]I have a guess and I’d wager it’s multiculturalism. People in Singapore and Kuala Lampur and Hong Kong actually have to deal with foreigners on a daily basis. Taiwan, by contrast, has to be one of the most parochial islands in Asia - how many times does your average Taiwanese (outside of central Taipei) get a chance to see a foreigner, much less get the opportunity to speak to one? I’d wager that most of the Taiwanese I’ve met, I have been the first white guy and first native English speaker they’ve ever talked to in their lives.

So naturally, if you don’t use it, you lose it. Think about all the stuff you learned in school that you’ve long since forgotten as it had no practical application in your life. I mean, I couldn’t factor the area of a circle by using the diameter on my life, or recite all the state capitols in the union without getting stuck.[/quote]

Very true. But… Why did you include Hong Kong on your list??? I can tell you one thing. They’re as good at English as the Taiwanese are. I should know cause I’ve been there and have friends from there. In Hong Kong, only the highly educated are “good” at English. Otherwise, do expect some 16 year old from McDonald’s to give you a fish fillet when you asked for a cheese burger. For Singapore, it seems that everyone, excluding the ederly, is capable of using English in an effective manner. But then again, like you said, they are truly a multicultural community.[/quote]No, I’d have to disagree with you, 44. I’ve taught in both Taiwan and Hong Kong. Seeing as how English is supposed to be an official language in HK, their English is surely a disappointment, but it is still much better than Taiwan. In Taiwan, the only professionals who can communicate in English are the ones who have studied overseas. In Hong Kong, almost all professionals can communicate in English. Yes, they often think they are better than they really are, but they can at least get things done in English.

I think Mod Lang’s analysis is pretty well spot on. He’s got the places-Singapore-Malaysia and Hong Kong-in the right order for both multiculturalism and English language skills. As much as my HK wife and I despise those goddamn Singaporians and their obnoxious accents, their society as a whole learns English better than HK. University graduates from both HK and Singapore might compare more closely to each other, but when considering people of all education levels, Singapore wins hands down. Why? They are more multicultural and they need a neutral language to hold society together. They are also even more reliant on international business than HK. Both their suppliers and customers speak English. HK, on the other hand, is about 97% Chinese. The hinterland and supply chains leading into their economy are Chinese speaking. English is just for work. When I hear HK people speak English, I often hear a poor imitation of Pommy English even from well educated professionals. HK doesn’t really have its own dialect of English. Sure, there are English words that one hears more often in HK, but there is no particular HK accent or syntax traits. Singapore, on the other hand, truly has its own dialect of English (and Putonghua). It may not be as refined as that of the U.S., UK, Oz, etc, but it is definitely above the level of the pigin Englishes found in places like India and New Zealand (just making sure you’re reading thoroughly :laughing: ). I can almost always tell by accent that a person is from Singapore. Sometimes I guess wrong, and the person turns out to be Malaysian. A close guess. For many of the HK people I meet, I can’t tell from their English if they are mainlanders or HKers. However, HK English is still better than Taiwan English if only for the fact that kids grow up knowing that they won’t be able to get any sort of white collar job without it.

23

Well Singaporean english is Singlish, and is really a result of multiculturalism. It’s English has a spice of vocabulary and syntax contributed from Malay, Chinese, and Hindi. I do not find it obnoxious, but I think it really fits for singaporean to speak that way. It’s an identity, and Singaporean speaks very fast.

I’d rather Taiwanese develop their own dialect of Tailish than no english at all. Expression like “No body bird me.” could be fun sometimes.

ax

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[quote=“ax”]I’d rather Taiwanese develop their own dialect of Tailish than no English at all. Expression like “No body bird me.” could be fun sometimes.[/quote]But totally useless for communicating with anyone outside Taiwan, which is the whole point of learning English. I like to think I can understand all native English speakers (even Glaswegians and Aussies) But that sentence is gibberish.

25

Yeah I’m sure the Singaporeans get a great kick out of Singlish, but it’s useless as a means of communication with English speakers. I have met many though who can turn toggle their Singlish button on and off depending on who the audience is.

26

I did say that for HK, only the highly educated are good at English (by that I mean they’re good enough to communicate at it cause in reality, they suck). Exactly how many people in HK are highly educated? How many HK high school students can actually communicate in English like they can in Singapore/Malaysia?

[quote]
I think Mod Lang’s analysis is pretty well spot on. He’s got the places-Singapore-Malaysia and Hong Kong-in the right order for both multiculturalism and English language skills. As much as my HK wife and I despise those goddamn Singaporians and their obnoxious accents, their society as a whole learns English better than HK. University graduates from both HK and Singapore might compare more closely to each other, but when considering people of all education levels, Singapore wins hands down. Why? They are more multicultural and they need a neutral language to hold society together. They are also even more reliant on international business than HK. Both their suppliers and customers speak English. HK, on the other hand, is about 97% Chinese. The hinterland and supply chains leading into their economy are Chinese speaking. English is just for work. When I hear HK people speak English, I often hear a poor imitation of Pommy English even from well educated professionals. HK doesn’t really have its own dialect of English. Sure, there are English words that one hears more often in HK, but there is no particular HK accent or syntax traits. Singapore, on the other hand, truly has its own dialect of English (and Putonghua). It may not be as refined as that of the U.S., UK, Oz, etc, but it is definitely above the level of the pigin Englishes found in places like India and New Zealand (just making sure you’re reading thoroughly :laughing: ). I can almost always tell by accent that a person is from Singapore. Sometimes I guess wrong, and the person turns out to be Malaysian. A close guess. For many of the HK people I meet, I can’t tell from their English if they are mainlanders or HKers. However, HK English is still better than Taiwan English if only for the fact that kids grow up knowing that they won’t be able to get any sort of white collar job without it.[/quote]

J)I agree with on almost everything you said, but I wouldn’t quite say that the average HK citizen is capable of communicating in English like the average Singaporean or the average Malaysian. In terms of written English, yes HK is better than Taiwan and just a tad bit worse than Singapore/Malaysia, but in terms of speaking it… Well, that’s another story. Your average HK citizen or high schooler is as good as the Taiwanese when it comes to spoken English. Neither can really speak the language.

As for “Singlish”… Very few Singaporeans are actually capable of speaking it in a consistent and flawless manner. You’re right, it’s not as refine as NA English or Australian English, but if you get a Singaporean who’s fluent in it, it sounds like a totally new English dialect without any flaws. It’s like a birth of a whole new English accent.

27

someguy44 wrote

someguy44 should have written

Since you are so critical of the teachers here I feel one should ask who taught you.

28

Pie? Me like pie!

The area is Pir^2 with r=1/2d. You calculated the circumference. :wink:

Sorry for being off topic. I

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A Taiwanese “tailish” or whatever would be useless for the main reason the government here has been pushing for educational reforms regarding English and language competence . . . Taiwanese don’t need a homegrown English, they need to be able to communicate with the rest of the business, engineering, medical, and scientific worlds in English. For Taiwanese, unlike Singapore, English is not a means of building identity (Mandarin, Taiwanese, Hakka, and other locally-used native languages do that fine) but as a utility for communicating with non-Chinese speakers in the business world . . . and with a need like that, some sort of standard English is neccessary . . . not an aberration.

When dealing with issues of communication with outsiders, localization is not helpful.

BTW, specifically which “confessions” were you referring to?

30

GOPBILL wrote the following in order to correct my “poor grammar”, which was taught to me by qualified English teachers from Canada.

[quote]these kids were taught by so CALLED native English speakers.

Since you are so critical of the teachers here I feel one should ask who taught you.[/quote]

GOPBILL should’ve written:
Since you are so critical of the teachers here, I feel one should ask who taught you?

Thank you for correcting my poor English! You found one mistake of mine and I found two by you. You forgot to put a comma after “here” and you put a period instead of a question mark at the end of your sentece when you asked a question. Your English is definitely better than mine for sure! :unamused: Look, people make mistakes in their posts. Not everyone has the time to proof-read everything they’ve typed. You definitely didn’t! I can find a lot more mistakes of mine as well as others in this board so quit being a prick!

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[quote=“someguy44”]GOPBILL wrote the following in order to correct my “poor grammar”, which was taught to me by qualify English teachers from Canada.
[/quote]

Ahem. That should read as “qualified English teachers from Canada.”

:smiling_imp:

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[quote=“someguy44”]GOPBILL wrote the following in order to correct my “poor grammar”, which was taught to me by qualified English teachers from Canada.

[quote=“GOPBILL”]these kids were taught by so CALLED native English speakers.

Since you are so critical of the teachers here I feel one should ask who taught you.[/quote]
GOPBILL should’ve written:
Since you are so critical of the teachers here, I feel one should ask who taught you?

Thank you for correcting my poor English! You found one mistake of mine and I found two by you. You forgot to put a comma after “here” and you put a period instead of a question mark at the end of your sentece (sic) when you asked a question.[/quote]
You got Gopbill on the comma, but he was right to use a period instead of a question mark. You flunked again, Someguy.

33

[quote=“Juba”][quote=“someguy44”]GOPBILL wrote the following in order to correct my “poor grammar”, which was taught to me by qualified English teachers from Canada.

[quote=“GOPBILL”]these kids were taught by so CALLED native English speakers.

Since you are so critical of the teachers here I feel one should ask who taught you.[/quote]
GOPBILL should’ve written:
Since you are so critical of the teachers here, I feel one should ask who taught you?

Thank you for correcting my poor English! You found one mistake of mine and I found two by you. You forgot to put a comma after “here” and you put a period instead of a question mark at the end of your sentece (sic) when you asked a question.[/quote]
You got Gopbill on the comma, but he was right to use a period instead of a question mark. You flunked again, Someguy.[/quote]

Ok. Well, I was always taught that you should end a question with a question mark. Would you mind explaining to me why you shouldn’t? How come you caught it and Mod Lang didn’t? You could be right though, but I “ain’t” no English major. I’m only teaching English to beginners for a few hours a week here. I’m definitely not qualified to teach intermediate English in Taiwan. The Taiwanese are screwed up as it is. Why should I add to that? If you’ve read one of my posts, you would’ve seen that I wrote, “My grammar is nothing to brag about, but even I’m not this bad.” I was referring to such phrases as “go a head” and “it’s over their”. Look, there are a lot of foreign teachers who are qualified to work here, but there are also a lot who aren’t. By the way, you think I flunked? Have you read the other posts in the board? The thing is…, you can still tell whether a person is capable in English or not just by looking at his/her posts. The guy who wrote that letter of inquiry, with his masters degree from India (I think he’s a fraud though), is definitly not! By the way, why don’t you write longer posts? Is it that you’re afraid you’ll make a few grammatical errors without realizing it like most people do in this board?

Also, I am very critical of English teachers here. This would include me as well. As for my stupidity for making a few grammatical errors here and there… All I can say is this,

www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lights/386 … canada.wav (copy and paste link cause geocities doesn’t allow direct linking)

Sorry to my fellow “Canucks”, but I couldn’t resist. j/k

P.S. Go Canucks Go!!!

34

[quote]Ok. Well, I was always taught that you should end a question with a question mark. Would you mind explaining to me why you shouldn’t?[/quote]Because it’s not a question, take a closer look at the sentence:
Since you are so critical of the teachers here I feel one should ask who taught you.

What is the main verb ? It’s ‘feel’ not ‘ask’. He is stating a fact about his feeling, nothing is being asked, yet. “Who taught you” is not a question either, it’s like “He who taught you”. Compare I want to ask what the time is and I want to ask “What is the time?”
If you look at this sentence in other languages it might be clearer
But then again, I’ve never passed an English exam in my life and I’m looking at this from a purely logical point of view.

35

All right. All right. You guys are right. I really didn’t look at that sentence closely. It is a statement and not a question. I’ll stop playing this game now. However, the point I was trying to prove all along still stands. Just cause you’re a native English speaker does not automatically make you a better English speaker or writer than a non-native English speaker. A lot of native English speakers in this forum seem to think that way. I think they’ve been in Asia too long and have been influenced. As for my poor grammar… I’ll just say
this again,

www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lights/386 … canada.wav (copy and paste)

36

I taught at a bushiban my first year here and am now teaching at a private high school. Thought it would be different but alas, no such luck because the parents are still paying for their students to attend school as in bushibans. I teach anywhere from 36 to 55 students per class with 23 classes each week. I’m the only foreigner at a school of over 3000 students. And, yes, the Chinese English teachers do have varying degrees of ability in teaching the language. One student showed me her test paper where she had to fill in the blank. There was only one word choice that had any hope of working: “anywhere”. The blank gave the first letter as “a” and the last letter as “r”. Where was the “e”? My student was confused of course but smart enough to figure it out. There were other grammatical mistakes on the paper too. That’s an English test?!!

Recently decided to give all 850 or so of my students a one-on-one oral test to try and make it meaningful and to make an attempt at giving an accurate assessment of their abilities. It took me two weeks to complete! The thanks I got??? Well, as I failed about half the students in each of my classes, I was criticized for showing failure marks in the school’s computer system. Was told to increase all marks substantially. I wonder about using a bell curve. Does anyone know how to do that? So far, I’ve just increased the marks by 20 points. That created a dilemma. If a student got 70%, should I give them 90%? What about the student who legitimately got 86%? Do I give that student 100 or keep the mark lower than the other student who truly only got 70%?

In September, I asked if I could change the textbooks to easier ones but was told an emphatic no - just do your best they said. Right. The students do not have the ability to learn or even retain information about horoscopes, signs, and the adjectives that describe people under each sign. They can do very simple adjectives only but I had to attempt to teach the material anyhow. That is just one little example of what I’ve been up against.

I’m hurt, disappointed, disillusioned, angry, frustrated (and naive???). The Chinese teachers are gossiping and I tried to do my best!

37

uhhhmmmmm…

“seem”

We only use the “s” at the end of a word when our subject is the 3rd person singular.

Will the educating ever cease?

38

uhhhmmmmm…

“seem”

We only use the “s” at the end of a word when our subject is the 3rd person singular.

Will the educating ever cease?[/quote]

Yes, I already know this. I overlooked that one. Now, it’s fixed. You only write short posts in this board. Why don’t you write longer posts so that you’ll be able to make grammatical errors without even realizing it? It’s fun to pick on someone isn’t it? I don’t go around these boards correcting everybody’s grammar and believe me, there are a lot of people (native or non-native English speakers) who need correcting on.

Btw, my friend who teaches English in LA said the sentence “Since you’re so critical of teachers here, I must ask who taught you.” should really be “Because you’re so critical of teachers here, I must ask who taught you.”

His explaination - Using “since” like “because” is ok in everyday, casual conversation, but is not acceptable for formal written English.

And oh yeah, I’m an Economics major! :saywhat:
Anyway, this is fun. Keep taking shots at me. Bring it on! You must be a hockey fan with a name like “Toe Save”. If you are, then the Habs, Oilers, Flames, Sens, and especially the Laughs suck!

members.aol.com/tadsg/rwfaileg.wav
members.aol.com/tadsg/english.wav

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[quote=“someguy44”]

Btw, my friend who teaches English in LA said the sentence “Since you’re so critical of teachers here, I must ask who taught you.” should really be “Because you’re so critical of teachers here, I must ask who taught you.”

His explaination - Using “since” like “because” is ok in everyday, casual conversation, but is not acceptable for formal written English. [/quote]

What a bunch of absolute nonsense. Either you misunderstood your friend or your friend is a complete idiot. First of all, different writing tasks require different levels of formality. The person who wrote this sentence was not writing a dissertation. Furthermore, even if he/she had been writing something in a formal style, “since” would still have been just fine. Whether to use “because” or “since” has nothing to do with the level of formality. It is more a question of flow and emphasis.
And I thought you said:[quote=“someguy44”] I’ll stop playing this game now.[/quote]

40

The Bell Curve is an ideal, it’s not really something you force the students into . . . it’s possible but then you are manipulating the data to fit the curve rather than using it as a means to judge whether the class falls withint a standard or typical distribution of grades. Ideally, your scores should fall naturally into the bell . . . if they do not then theoretically you know there is something wrong with the material as being inappropriate to the students, the motivation or ability of the students, or tests being too hard or easy or whatever. Of course, if you wanted to you could manipulate the scores by simply assigning a bell distribution . . . which you arbitrarily assigned students to . . . so, whoever got the most points gets the top slot on your curved sequence while the lowest points gets the bottom . . . depending upon the scores you plug them into the appropriate slots . . . this is NOT a good way to judge or score folks . . . it may look good on paper for evaluators but it doesn’t reflect actual ability or help you determine what the students actually learned. Don’t do it. IMO.