I would like to sue the MOE for failure to follow government laws

Don’t laugh or make snide comments. I’m serious. Instead of continuing to see and hear about endless rule changes and policy interpretations and doing nothing about it to make our lives and minds rest easier, and since the Ministry of Education seems to ignore Council of Labor Affair rulings/directives and/or government laws, and since the MOE seems to do what it pleases with no real consideration of relevant laws/regulations, and despite knowing that, when all is said and done, this is really just a pissing pot contest between the MOE and the CLA, I am willing to spend some time in a court to sue the MOE for negligence/ignorance/whatever can be made to apply to the Ministry, to force it to either recognize relevant laws and how they apply to foreign teachers and/or force the MOE to issue a statement of how and why it applies its policies. Richard, I would be willing to contribute at least 100 000 NTD towards starting the process of filing a suit against the MOE in court here in Taiwan for this purpose, not only to see what will happen, but also as a foreign spouse wanting a final clarification of my work rights/obligations here in Taiwan, because I’m sick of not knowing what I should/shouldn’t be doing. After that, if the suit is accepted, I would be willing to go the distance to get an answer one way or the other, as long as the entire process wasn’t too expensive. Just send me the relevant information via email, how I need to pay you for your services to file suit in Taipei (or Tainan, where I live and work), and any personal documents I need to prepare and/or send to you to start the ball rolling. I’m willing to do it for everyone’s benefit, so please get back to me soon so I know how we can start the process.

You need to talk to Herr Richard Hartzell. He lives for stuff like this!

I’d be willing to make a contribution.

I make a contribution too for this

Thanks, guys. If more people hop on the bandwagon and fund this case, then I’m definitely willing to spend some more of my own time and my own money to be the test case in Taiwan’s court system. Having just read that everyone will need licenses in the near future to teach/work in kindergartens, I really think we need some clarification, once and for all, on what is happening with the MOE with regards to their treatment/regulation of the foreign teaching community on a consistent basis. Richard, I await your reply on this matter. If you cannot take up this matter in the courts, just point me to a Taiwanese lawyer who’s willing to represent me on this matter, because I think we all need some clarification as soon as possible.

Let’s get together and talk sometime. I am in the Nei Hu District of Taipei.

Please be aware that legal action begins with a “rejection” of an application . . . . . so you might want to think of how that is supposed to work . . . . . . in your situation.

We also might try to have some type of coordination meeting with the MOEA, but unless we can get some Legislator or someone to back us up . . . . . that might not work out.

I will be interested to hear details of your situation . . . . . is there any chance you can give me a Chinese language summary???

you might want to hold it… I heard today from the taipei bushiban assn. that the MOE has decided to respect the Labor Bureau rules. second hand info but they are reliable. they also said other teachers can obtain 3-year work permits.

If as Daltongang says, there is change in the wind, maybe it is worth waiting a little.

I’m in the same boat. As I wrote in a thread under the ‘Work-related’ legal forum, the MOE said I neeeded a work permit from them even though I am married ot a Taiwanese.

But we could establish some sort of fund, and start things happening. Maybe before a test case (eg rejection of Health Insurance card application or MOE forcing my school to make me get a work permit) we could start by collecting infprmation in the form of the written opinions of the CLA and MOE.

Although I don’t know much about the Taiwanese structure of government, might the Control Yuan be relevant here. Don’t they act as a sort of Ombudsman in some way? If the MOE is ignoring the law, can they force it to obey the law, or make some sort of ruling?

I would also be willing to contribute to some sort of fund, but on a postdated or installment payment plan :smiley:


 I don't like the idea of waiting, because we just end up getting more confused, not less, as time passes.  My faith in all government laws and regulations related to this situation is seriously eroding as time passes.  But, I do like the fund idea.  I really want to be the test case.  Yes, I am married to a Taiwanese woman, I have the JFRV and personal ARC, and yes, I have the open work permit, but the reason I got that permit apparently changed months ago, making it almost useless (in my semi-educated opinion).  So, as of now, I'm working privately, in a bushiban and in an elementary school.  In the elementary school I work at, we actually got raided almost a year ago, but when I showed the police officer my permit, he just shrugged and let me go.  This makes me think I am legal, but given all of the other rumors, actions, missteps by the MOE, who's to know what is legal or not?

 Richard, what are the chances of me/everyone else who is interested paying you for your time/applicable filing fees as they happen out of the aforementioned fund, pulling together relevant information based on our own experiences, and then using either myself or someone else as the test case, whoever has the best chance of winning?  I really would like to move forward with this, but living here in Tainan, it may be a little unrealistic for myself being the test case.  At any rate, my initial 100 000 NTD contribution stands ready whenever/whoever gets this case off the ground.  Better yet, if various people in the foreign community here in Taiwan can work together on different aspects of how poorly foreign workers are treated here in Taiwan (ie. disregard of relevant laws, guarantor stipulations, licenses/contracts which should last a certain period but are in fact linked to your ARC expiration date, etc), and have Richard represent us all in a class action suit against various departments of the government, the money and time spent on such an undertaking may finally get us noticed by the government and treated by its various departments in a positive rather than demeaning manner.  

 I don't know ... for myself, planning to live and work here until my young daughter finishes high school, I think it may be a worthwhile pursuit just for peace of mind and some form of job security in my own mind.  Any one else feel the same way and willing to give it a go?  I'd even go as far as helping to pay for an ad in one of the local daily papers to draw some attention to the situation.

I’d be willing to contribute my 2 NT. That’s about all I have, but I’d do what I could.

I too would be willing to contribute… I live in Taichung.

However, what does the statement made by the MOE the other day have to with all this? How does it affect it?

here are the links…

etaiwannews.com/Taiwan/2004/ … 292016.htm

I don’t really see what your/our court case is based on so far. If you got all your visas and they didn’t bust or reject you as Hartzell notes, then I don’t see much of a case. (not a lawyer though!) How about an open letter of protest (grievances/suggestions) signed by a lot of foreign teachers, urging them to get their shit together in particular ways that are to our collective advantage. Like a foreign teacher’s union maybe? :loco:


Does anyone know how I can reach Hartzell? I really would like to talk to him. I am totally for suing this government, once I have a chance to talk to Hartzell about my case I will share the details. It’s very complicated, according to the Labour Affairs lady I spoke with; which really means she didn’t know what she should do. Why doesn’t anyone in this government know how to pick up the phone and ask? They just refuse your request in order to not lose face or something. I haven’t experienced anything democratic with this government yet, all I know is that I am tired of being treated like some type of third class citizen that is a burden to this country because I try to exercise my rights.

I know I have a case against this government, but I’m not sure what angle to attack from so I need advice. I have to say that this is my first time visiting this site. I am happy to see that not everyone has decided to lay down and live in fear of the Taiwanese and their “punishments.”
Where I live, people just want to ignore what’s going on, get their paychecks and live with the harrassment in order not to be noticed. It’s very disappointing.

So allow me to congradulate you all for standing up for yourselves and what you believe in. It’s refreshing to read you posts and I look forward to reading more.

:braveheart: My Honour is Mine!

OP, I totally support you on this. I am willing to give money, but rather contribute time and other energies that would cause a change. When this starts to gel and you know how you are going to start to excute your action for change you PM and let me know how I can help. Your post mirrors my current frustations so clearly!!!

Interestingly, in the past couple of weeks or so, we’ve come across a disturbing trend. A number of employers across different industries (i.e. not just buxiban/schools) are giving foreign employees difficulty with respect to labor (Laobao), health (NHI Jianbao), tax, work permit issues. It doesn’t matter if they are foreigners married to a ROC national or single-status foreigners.

What makes this such a huge headache for the foreign born employee is that these issues cut across so many Taiwan government agencies and bureaus to have the laws clarified for the employer’s HR/Accounting folks. These kinds of issues may affect Tax folks, Council of Labor Folks, Bureau of Labor Affairs folks, Foreign Affairs Police. Sometimes, it is just employer’s ignorance, sometimes it’s the employer looking to “save money” by cutting corners and trying to browbeat the foreign employee. Whatever the case is, it’s a bad situation.

It’s a bit worrisome. Maybe it’s just a bad stretch :idunno: If this is happening to you, email us, we’re interested in knowing about it (hopefully not a trend).

wait…so U R trying to sue a government ministry for incompetence? i dunno about here, but that would NEVER work in Canada…otherwise they woulda gone bankrupt in 1869 :slight_smile:

I would like to contribute too.

I used to work for GVO part time, until a few weeks ago when they told me they need my blood test, physical, police background check,yada,yada. Never mind that I had already done all of this crap two years ago for the Spousal ARC. When they hired me they said I don’t need the standard stuff because they don’t have to sponsor my work permit, but I guess they must have heard from MOE to start hasseling me for it now. Since I only worked a couple hours a week, I just quit rather than go through the hassle again.

Simply scroll up to his post, just above yours, and send him a PM (Private Message), or make note of his email address, included in his signature and drop him an email.

Richard W. Hartzell
Neihu District, Taipei (114)

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Simply scroll up to his post, just above yours, and send him a PM (Private Message), or make note of his email address, included in his signature and drop him an email.

Richard W. Hartzell
Neihu District, Taipei (114)

Back to top PROFILE | SEND PM | E-MAIL | WWW

OOC[/quote]Good change Honour found him mate, that post is about to celebrate its 1st year anniverary.

:wink: Yep. I didn’t see an answer for Honour in the thread and I figured this was better than a bump. :slight_smile: