I see that some one got temped and locked for asking about how to go get an illegal job, which is about as hard as walking into a school and saying “I don’t need an ARC” yet there is a job advert from some “agency” wanting a teacher to teach 2-3 year olds in a kindy which is illegal any way you look at it and that remains.
Why one and not the other and why can’t you guys get on these agents about posting illegal jobs? 
I think most likely because one is clearly illegal (I haven’t seen the post you’re talking about, but if an OP comes along and says “I’m new to Taiwan, not married to a local, and want to get a job but not worry about an ARC” most likely that is illegal, since the OP won’t have any basis for teaching legally.)
The other is not necessarily illegal, right? Isn’t it still legal for an ROC national to teach very young children English? Otherwise, the bill that’s being talked about in the legislature about banning the formal teaching of English for kids under 6 wouldn’t be in debate, would it? So if someone holds ROC nationality, the situation would not be illegal, right? (I’m not up on the latest permutations of the law about teaching small children English, but this is my understanding.)
[quote=“asian.consultants”]Asian Consultants International has many part time and full time positions in Taipei and other parts of Taiwan for you. Just contact us! We never pressure a teacher into a job that he/she is not comfortable with! Please look here:
Location: Sanxia, New Taipei City Job Code: [237USAF0926]
Work in a beautiful upscale suburb that is green and pretty but still easy to take MRT. Well-established American-style language institute in Sanxia (near Taipei University). Pay is around 55000-60000/month, depending on numbers of classes taught. Working hours: 9am-4pm, M-F (30 min. arrival prior to start of class is required); 430-610pm, max 4 days/wk (elementary class).
Students’ age: 3 to 12 years old
. Class size: No more than 18, with Chinese staff assistance. Contract length: One year. The school has a large and spacious facility, and provides set curriculum, initial and on-going training,
ARC
, insurance, airport pick up, and housing assistance. One head foreign teacher and 9 happy foreign teachers on board! Very cool Chinese manager. 40 min. bus ride to Taipei Main Station.
Great for first-time teachers as well as experienced teachers. ASAP, especially one for
Yo-Yo/K1 class (age 2-3)
. Female, North American preferred ASAP.
There are jobs like this one, plus more. You can reach us by calling 02 2764 5784, or visit our website at asianconsultants.com. We would love to assist you in finding something suitable in Taiwan.
To apply, please first visit this link: asianconsultants.com/register-with-aci/
For complete list of jobs: asianconsultants.com/esl-jobs2/
You will find all the information you need in order to apply for a position through ACI on the webpage. Also, look around the site and discover tons of info on Taiwan that no one else ever tells you about!
WE LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR APPLICATION!![/quote]
Clearly, the ARC being offered for this job means the job is illegal. No ifs and or buts. :neutral:
Why is it that, whenever someone points out illegal job ads, the official response is always a non sequitur along the lines of “isn’t it still legal for an ROC national…?” It may also be legal for police to speed in some circumstances. It doesn’t make it legal for most of us.
Fact is, the site is accepting want ads for jobs that are illegal for the largest number of foreign English teachers. Common practice? Yes. But the fact still remains they are illegal and could land some foreigners in hot water. The site accepts these ads without disclosure or warning of the legalities of them. It could be seen as endorsing these jobs. I find the standard dismissive line “they aren’t illegal for everyone” to be amoral, uncaring and completely avoiding of the point.
Not only that, they aren’t making any money off it afaik. :loco:
I don’t think anyone is trying to be dismissive. I’m a “garden variety” foreigner myself, and if I were to seek a job in Taiwan, I wouldn’t have any special status or advantage that would allow me to take a job that didn’t offer an ARC (and the corresponding level of control exerted by the employer as a result).
But you have to remember (and I have to remind myself of this frequently as well): times are changing. When I was first in Taiwan (well, after the ARC system went into effect, I mean) it was very unusual for anyone to have work rights. PARC wasn’t around then. Today, between PARC, Article 51 and people actually taking ROC citizenship, there are far more people who might be reading Forumosa with a quite different status. I think the ROC should be taking a far more liberal view toward productive, not-married-to-ROC-national types who want to live in Taiwan, work, make above the average salary and pay more tax than the average bear, by providing more liberal work rights, but evidently that is not yet a priority for them.
It has been frequently stated on this site that posters are (or should be) mature adults who have the responsibility to become familiar with the law in the country in which they intend to reside. There is no shortage of people on these boards happy to discuss in detail what is, or is not, legal for a person in any particular circumstance. I’ll bet if you search “kindy” “legal” you’ll find a dozen-odd threads discussing this very point, and there’s a sticky in the Employment section if I recall correctly. So I don’t think anyone can really cry foul on the part of Forumosa.
I don’t think anyone is trying to be dismissive. I’m a “garden variety” foreigner myself, and if I were to seek a job in Taiwan, I wouldn’t have any special status or advantage that would allow me to take a job that didn’t offer an ARC (and the corresponding level of control exerted by the employer as a result).
But you have to remember (and I have to remind myself of this frequently as well): times are changing. When I was first in Taiwan (well, after the ARC system went into effect, I mean) it was very unusual for anyone to have work rights. PARC wasn’t around then. Today, between PARC, Article 51 and people actually taking ROC citizenship, there are far more people who might be reading Forumosa with a quite different status. I think the ROC should be taking a far more liberal view toward productive, not-married-to-ROC-national types who want to live in Taiwan, work, make above the average salary and pay more tax than the average bear, by providing more liberal work rights, but evidently that is not yet a priority for them.
It has been frequently stated on this site that posters are (or should be) mature adults who have the responsibility to become familiar with the law in the country in which they intend to reside. There is no shortage of people on these boards happy to discuss in detail what is, or is not, legal for a person in any particular circumstance. I’ll bet if you search “kindy” “legal” you’ll find a dozen-odd threads discussing this very point, and there’s a sticky in the Employment section if I recall correctly. So I don’t think anyone can really cry foul on the part of Forumosa.[/quote]
Irrelevent. So what if 15 or 20 years ago most people worked illegally? I suppose I could add another irrelevent point here: Kindy teaching was made briefly legal for foreign teachers about 8 years ago and was made illegal again soon after. Trivia has no impact on the current situation-- or the point of the discussion-- and lends nothing to your position. And, yes, there are people who (myself among them) have a visa status which would allow them to safely accept these jobs. Again, it’s NOT the point.
Ok, so you are seeking refuge in the “adults should take responsibility for themselves” line. It’s, at best, a cop out position-- an admission that F.com knows they are accepting illegal job ads, but don’t want to stop, or at least provide warnings, out of self interest. Why should F.com care? It’s supposed to be a “for us, by us” kind of site. For newly arrived foreigners, reliable information is hard to come by and dishonest employers take advantage of the ignorance. Many newbs aren’t even aware that kindy jobs are illegal. They’ll say, “they gave me ARC; it’s legal,” not knowing the work permit is only valid for a cram school. I feel that F.com, possessing accurate information, has an obligation to share it, or at least not wilfully ignore it. Not all, or even most, foreign English teachers have JFRV, APRC or ROC nationality ( and those who do more than likely wouldn’t be in the market for these jobs at any rate). Either rejecting illegal jobs, or at least posting a standard warning after each posting would be doing a service to the community. It puzzles me why this is so hard to do.
isn’t it also against the law for an advertiser like the one posted above to specify a gender preference (female preferred).
IMO, there are literally so many posts already on these boards warning newbees about ARC issues that if they do not read them, they probably shouldn’t have been issued a passport.
The laws are on record. There is no reason to exclude jobs that are legal for some because they are illegal for others. I still assert that if one is old enough to go abroad to live, one should be old enough to find out what the law is. It is not the responsibility of a Web site to save them from their own indolence and/or ignorance.
[quote=“ironlady”]IMO, there are literally so many posts already on these boards warning newbees about ARC issues that if they do not read them, they probably shouldn’t have been issued a passport.
The laws are on record. There is no reason to exclude jobs that are legal for some because they are illegal for others. I still assert that if one is old enough to go abroad to live, one should be old enough to find out what the law is. It is not the responsibility of a Web site to save them from their own indolence and/or ignorance.[/quote]
So it is the website’s responsibility to promote illegal work practices? So it is their role to enable fraud? The site’s braintrust is aware of the law, but still allows posts for jobs that break it. What does that say about F.com? It is absolutely the website’s responsibility to promote lawful activities and discourage illegal ones. The issue isn’t foreigners and their responsibility to find out about laws in foreign lands (F.com is supposed to be a trustworthy source for such info, no?) It is that, in advertising illegal jobs, Forumosa is actively colluding with those that promote them. It runs in direct contradiction with its supposed mission and it suggests a conflict of interest-type relationship with these employers. Perhaps it is time for honest disclosure of any business relationship between ACI and its agents and F.com.
I’m not aware of any relationships between Forumosa and any other entities, but that’s because of my role as moderator, not owner or admin or anything else. I can’t speak to that.
And please note – I never said people “used to work illegally” before ARCs. Before ARCs, there was no illegal work. All work was legal. Just depended upon agreement between the parties. It was really nice. 
But then again buses in those days only cost NT$6, too. (Where’s the doddering old man thinking of the good old days smiley?)
I’ve given you the best answer I have, which I believe is a logical and rational one. You don’t agree. Well, the function of the Feedback Forum is for you to express your opinion, which you’ve done. I don’t see where us two going back and forth any more is going to clarify any issues, but if you want to post more, feel free.
[quote=“ironlady”]I’m not aware of any relationships between Forumosa and any other entities, but that’s because of my role as moderator, not owner or admin or anything else. I can’t speak to that.
And please note – I never said people “used to work illegally” before ARCs. Before ARCs, there was no illegal work. All work was legal. Just depended upon agreement between the parties. It was really nice. But then again buses in those days only cost NT$6, too. (Where’s the doddering old man thinking of the good old days smiley?)
I’ve given you the best answer I have, which I believe is a logical and rational one. You don’t agree. Well, the function of the Feedback Forum is for you to express your opinion, which you’ve done. I don’t see where us two going back and forth any more is going to clarify any issues, but if you want to post more, feel free.[/quote]
The responses have neither been rational, nor logical (to say nothing about ethical). Why would a site that purports to support foreigners in Taiwan knowingly post ads that are illegal for a substantial portion of its readership to accept? Responses to my enquiries have ranged from evasive (irrelevent discussion of yesteryear Taiwan) to dismissive (it isn’t F.com’s responsibility).
Essentially, you’ve danced around the issue and avoided the harder questions in favour of red herrings.
I still don’t know why F.com accepts illegal ads and has defended ACI so much, locking threads and temping commentary from their ads. I have to ask what is so special about them?
I don’t think that there is a law against discrimination of non-ROC citizens. Now discriminating against ROC citizens is illegal.
[quote=“Toasty”]
I still don’t know why F.com accepts illegal ads and has defended ACI so much, locking threads and temping commentary from their ads. I have to ask what is so special about them?[/quote]
It was decided a while back that forumosa classifieds be strictly not a discussion forum, in order to encourage people to post there without fear of trolling and flame-wars. Hence comments are removed and posts locked. There’s no preferential treatment of ACI. Anybody who posts there can expect the same.
As regards the illegality of some jobs, I’m more horrified by the salaries on offer. 
Well, that might be so, but it’s a wrinkle that Admin could iron out. Temping a thread because the OP is looking for illegal work is justifiable, and temping one where the OP offers a clearly illegal job is just as justifiable. Make the “agents” play the game. I doubt it will change anyone’s mind about taking illegal jobs or not, but still…
[quote=“jimipresley”]
As regards the illegality of some jobs, I’m more horrified by the salaries on offer. [/quote]
This sums it up pretty well. I believe it’s purely a question of which policy is of the greater benefit to site users, protecting the ignorant few or posting the ads for the many who take such jobs? The ads are free, like Ironlady I can’t say 100% but I’m quite sure there’s no direct benefit to Forumosa.
There is no business relationship between ACI and Forumosa. If you see an ACI banner somewhere, then this would likely mean that ACI had paid something. All classifieds in Forumosa are currently free, and they always have been.
If you see a classified ad that promotes an illegal job, bring it to the attention of the moderator or to me (the admin). One of us will review it. This may take time - if you feel that delay is dismissive, then so be it - but it is not intended to be. Describing Forumosa as “promoting illegal work practices” sounds like an exaggeration, and as “actively colluding … [to] promote them” is nonsense. And as you said, it is the opposite of what the site’s mission.
[quote=“jdsmith”]
Clearly, the ARC being offered for this job means the job is illegal. No ifs and or buts. :neutral:[/quote]
Not necessarily - it means that the school is willing to hire someone illegally. It doesn’t mean that anyone who takes that job will be necessarily doing so illegally. They don’t say that they will ONLY hire someone who needs an ARC. An ABC with dual citizenship or a naturalized former-westerner could legally work at this job. I believe that is Ironlady’s point - although the intent is obviously to hire someone illegally, the job in and of itself is not illegal. Perhaps those (admittedly few) who can legally work kindy might like to see these ads.
Perhaps these ads could just be accompanied by a quick boilerplate statement saying that teaching young kids is illegal for non-ROC nationals 
The fact is, there isnt much information on the internet that about a how to guide to teaching illegally. Its natural to cave and finally just ask. I dont think we should blame the OP of that thread, just take closer examinations of ourselves.