# Indo-european words in Old Chinese **URL:** \ **Category:** Learning Chinese\ **Created:** [February 15, 2019, 9:07am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085 "2019-02-15T09:07:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 9:07am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/1 "2019-02-15T09:07:15Z")
So it seems like there’s quite a bit of words in Old Chinese that could have origins in an Indo-European language. There are many more examples, I just listed a couple. Ones I didn’t list, such as 社 and 祇 (earth god, OC \*[g.d]e) might be related to gaia, are pretty interesting too. | Hanji | OC | MC | Taigi | PIE | OE | English | Comment | | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | | 腹 | `*p(r)uk` | pjuwk | pak | \*bhelgh | buc | belly, bucket | | | 夾 | `*kˤep` | keap | kiap | \*ghrebh | græpsan | grasp | | | 窟 | `*[kʰ]ˤut` | khwot | khut | \*kutą | cot | cot | | | 歿 | `*mˤut` | mwot | bu̍t | \*mer | mort | mort | | | 沸 | `*Nə.p[u][t]-s` | pj+jH | hut | \*bhreu- | broþ | broth | liquid that’s boiled | | 雁 | `*C.[ŋ]ˤrar-s` | ngaenH | gān | \*ghans | gos | goose | | | 長 | `*Cə-[N]-traŋ` | drjang | tn̂g | \*dlonghos | lang | long | | | 屯 | `*[d]ˤun` | dwon | tun | \*dhu-no- | tun | town | | | 株 | `*tro` | trju | tsu | \*drew-o- | treo | tree | | | 球 | `*[g](r)[u]` | gjuw | kiû | \*gleu- | cliewen | clew | | | 號 | `*[C.g]ˤaw` | haw | hō | \*gal- | | call | Old Norse: kalla. Also 吼、哮、嘷 | | 何 | `*[g]ˤaj` | ha | hô | \*kwo- | hwæt | what | also why | | 磨 | `*mˤaj` | ma | buâ | \*mele- | mylen | mill | | | 飛 | `*Cə.pə[r]` | pj+j | pue | \*pleu- | fleoge | fly | | | 浮 | `*m.b(r)u` | bjuw | phû | \*pleu- | flowan | flow | | | 先 | `*sˤər` | sen | sing | \*sen- | | | Meaning old. Root for senator, senior. | | 孫 | `*[s]ˤu[n]` | swon | sun | \*su(e)-nu- | son | son | | | 帝 | `*tˤek-s` | tejH | tè | \*deiwos | tig | deity | OE name of a god. \*deiwos also evolved to be Zues, Jupiter | | 馬 | `*mˤraʔ` | maeX | bé | \*márkos | meare | mare | Old Norse: merr | | 車 | `*C.q(r)a` | kjo | tshia | \*krsos | carre | car | Anglo-French | | 輻 | `*pәk` | pjuwk | hok | \*spei- | spaca | spoke | PIE meaning sharp point, i.e. spike | | 羆 | `*praj` | pje | phî | \*bher- | bera | bear | OC meaning brown bear, PIE meaning brown. Bears seems to be sacred to IE speakers, and Huangdi is supernaturally related to bears. One of his tribal names is 有熊 | | 牘 | `*lˤok` | duwk | to̍k | \*dek- | | doc | Also 劄. As in document, doctrine, doctor. OC meaning instruction, official announcement. PIE meaning instruction, teach. | Are these mere coincidences? Or could Old-Chinese be a creole with a Burmese-Tibetan substrate and an Indo-European superstrate? ---
**Author:** ![Hanna](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hanna/32/24014_2.png) [@Hanna](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Hanna)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 9:12am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/2 "2019-02-15T09:12:12Z")
I dunno, man…looking at some of these it feels like a reach. I want to believe! ---
**Author:** ![Belgian\_Pie](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/8dc957/32.png) [@Belgian\_Pie](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Belgian_Pie)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 9:16am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/3 "2019-02-15T09:16:20Z")
> [@Hanna](#): > > I want to believe! So did Fox Mulder! ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 9:22am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/4 "2019-02-15T09:22:36Z")
I think some of them are definitely the case, such as 車 and many other chariot related words that I didn’t list. The horse one might be the case as well, as domestication of the horse, invention of the chariot and wheel were all likely of Indo-European invention. It was clear historically that these things were introduced to China from the steppes. From my perspective, others that really seem to be the case would be 號, 長, 何, 先, 孫 and 羆. Some of them have no real reason of being that way in Chinese, such as using 羆 to refer to brown bears, while it makes perfect sense in Indo-European, as \*bher- means brown, and there’s a cultural phenomenon of not calling bears by its real name, \*rtko. ---
**Author:** ![Belgian\_Pie](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/8dc957/32.png) [@Belgian\_Pie](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Belgian_Pie)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 10:10am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/5 "2019-02-15T10:10:10Z")
The word for tea in Dutch is thee, which is pronounced tée in Taiwanese. ---
**Author:** ![tempogain](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/tempogain/32/264650_2.png) [@tempogain](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/tempogain)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 10:13am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/6 "2019-02-15T10:13:50Z")
That’s well known as a case where we got the word from Chinese. The Indo-Europeans didn’t have tea 🙂 > **[Tea if by sea, cha if by land: Why the world only has two words for tea](https://qz.com/1176962/map-how-the-word-tea-spread-over-land-and-sea-to-conquer-the-world/)** > > Quartz is a guide to the new global economy for people in business who are excited by change. We cover business, economics, markets, finance, technology, science, design, and fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Belgian\_Pie](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/8dc957/32.png) [@Belgian\_Pie](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Belgian_Pie)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 10:36am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/7 "2019-02-15T10:36:33Z")
Tea-tea-tea is a song … cha-cha-cha! ---
**Author:** ![Hanna](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hanna/32/24014_2.png) [@Hanna](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Hanna)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 11:12am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/8 "2019-02-15T11:12:50Z")
Is this your area of research? I studied linguistics alongside my major because I always had an interest in this sort of thing, but got too preoccupied with other classes to dig much deeper. ---
**Author:** ![Chris](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@Chris](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Chris)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/9 "2019-02-15T13:34:39Z")
The Chinese word for “horse” (ma; Old Chinese mraʔ) and the English word “mare” (which can be traced through Old English mearh through Germanic marhijo- to old Gaulish marh/mark) may have a common central Asian origin. The Mongolian word is mori. EDIT: I see that’s in your list. ---
**Author:** ![Chris](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@Chris](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Chris)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 1:44pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/10 "2019-02-15T13:44:12Z")
What about honey? 蜜 mi, OC mit; PIE medhu-, English mead ---
**Author:** ![jinyu](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@jinyu](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/jinyu)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/11 "2019-02-15T13:51:28Z")
蜜is an interesting Chinese word which is believed to have been adopted via Proto-Tocharian (the Tocharians lived in modern day Xinjiang) from the Proto-Indo-European word médʰu. The Mandarin pronunciation is mi. In Russian we call honey мед myed. French miel. And then there’s English mead. And there are more examples in other European languages I know ---
**Author:** ![Whatevah](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/w/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Whatevah](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Whatevah)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/12 "2019-02-15T13:52:44Z")
If you want to connect Chinese to inIndo-European it makes more sense to find similar words to Indian or Iranian languages. China was almost mythical to Europeans as there were almost no contact before Marco Polo. China doesn’t even exist on most old maps. Edit: Even Marco Polo’s writings are closer to myth than reality. ---
**Author:** ![jinyu](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@jinyu](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/jinyu)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 1:53pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/13 "2019-02-15T13:53:09Z")
Great minds think alike 🙂 I thought of honey 蜜at the same time ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/14 "2019-02-15T15:04:12Z")
> [@Whatevah](#): > > If you want to connect Chinese to inIndo-European it makes more sense to find similar words to Indian or Iranian languages While that’s true, and there are plenty of Indic/Iranian loan words in Chinese through Buddhism, those linguistic exchange didn’t take place until Middle Chinese. Most of them are also easy to spot. During and before the period when Old Chinese was used, Chinese had more contact with the Tocharians. Well, there were also contacts with the Scythians, who spoke Eastern Iranian, during the Han dynasty. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/15 "2019-02-15T15:12:21Z")
> [@Hanna](#): > > Is this your area of research? no, I’m just a historical linguistics hobbyist. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 5:22am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/16 "2019-02-16T05:22:49Z")
I think the word 駒 `*[k]ˤ(r)ok-s` is a cognate with the Indo-European \*ḱr̥sós ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 1:58am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/17 "2019-02-18T01:58:55Z")
| Hanji | OC | MC | Taigi | PIE | OE | English | Comment | | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | | 駒 | `*[k]ˤ(r)ok-s` | kuwH | ku | \*ḱr̥sos | hors | horse | | | 蜜 | `*mit` | mjit | bi̍t | \*médʰu | medu | mead | honey | As per suggestion, updated the ekhwos and medhu cognates. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 5:33am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/18 "2019-02-18T05:33:19Z")
Other possible cognates: 犬 and canine 軒 and car 卒 (\*[ts]ut) and die (\*dheu-), as in tod in German 軲轆(\*gukluk) and wheel (\*kʷékʷlos) 輪 and run ---
**Author:** ![tempogain](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/tempogain/32/264650_2.png) [@tempogain](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/tempogain)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/19 "2019-09-03T05:26:23Z")
Split this topic on September 3, 2019, 5:26am UTC 3 posts were merged into an existing topic: [Origin of Taiwanese place names](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/origin-of-taiwanese-place-names/87521/26) ---
**Author:** ![Icon](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/icon/32/189245_2.png) [@Icon](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Icon)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2019, 7:54am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085/20 "2019-09-03T07:54:42Z")
Relevant and related to the Big China complex: > **[A visit to Academia Sinica's history museum: the good, the bad and the...](https://laorencha.blogspot.com/2019/09/a-visit-to-academia-sinicas-history.html?fbclid=IwAR1N9_7eYa-7c14mwX-1yMUcnevrdZnJ7xI0Knl_SesaW8LJbECNOgYfyFk)** > > Travel, books, politics, history and opinionating on life in Taiwan. [Next page](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/indo-european-words-in-old-chinese/177085.md?page=2)