Insult that landed an Irishman living in Wales in court

Discussion Open Forum
#1

PC run amuck…didn’t know that the “English” are now considered a ‘race.’

[quote]English ‘bitch’: Insult that landed an Irishman living in Wales in court for racial harassment
By JAMES TOZER, Last updated at 01:18am on 30th November 2007


Michael Forsythe has been found guilty of a racial insult

A grandfather has been given a prison sentence for racial harassment after calling a Welsh woman “English”.

Mick Forsythe used the term during an argument over a scratched car in his Welsh home town.

He called the vehicle’s owner, Lorna Steele, an “English bitch”.

She and her husband took great offence at the jibe and decided to take him to court.

The 55-year-old former lorry driver was found guilty of racially aggravated disorderly behaviour, and received a ten-week prison sentence suspended for 12 months.

Yesterday Mr Forsythe attacked the prosecution as a waste of time and money.

“I find it unbelievable that I’ve been prosecuted for this,” he said.

"I’m originally from Northern Ireland so I’m an adoptive Welshman.

"I’ve travelled all over Europe as a lorry driver and never had any problems with anybody and now they’re officially calling me a racist.

"It’s political correctness gone mad.

“The joke is that the woman I had the row with isn’t even English. She’s Welsh. I am absolutely gobsmacked, to be frank.”


the [i]“Victims”:[/i] Gavin and Lorna Steele

The case took nine months to get to court, having begun on a snowy day in February in the quiet mid-Wales market town of Newtown.

Mr Forsythe says his mind was on the recent arrival of his granddaughter when he struck anothervehicle while parking in front of his bric-a-brac shop.

The car belonged to Mrs Steele, who runs the tattoo parlour next door with her husband Gavin.

Mr Forsythe claims he went to offer to pay for the scratches he had caused. But, the court was told, he became abusive and hurled insults at Mrs Steele, 32, and her husband.

Yesterday his wife Val, 50, explained: 'Mick was a bit distracted because our granddaughter Rhian had just been born.

He went in and did the decent thing and owned up to it.

Then the next thing is they are asking for £500 for the damage.

"My husband has a temper and he was a lorry driver for years so his language is a bit colourful sometimes.

“The Steeles started the row and Mick got angry and he admits he swore at them. But he only muttered under his breath.”

After the argument Mrs Steele put up a sign in her shop which read “Some People Call Me a Bitch”.

But she insisted the incident was no joking matter.

She said: "I’m Welsh – I was born in Welshpool.

“But we couldn’t let him get away with what he said.”

Her husband, a 40-year-old Englishman originally from Hull, added of Mr Forsythe: "He is a racist. He doesn’t like the English.

"He’s from Ireland originally and he’s lived in Wales for years and some of them don’t like English people.

"The point is that he shouldn’t have said those things to Lorna.

"All we wanted from him was an apology but he wouldn’t give us that.

"So we’ve had to go all the way through the courts to get it.

"There’s no way this should have ended up in court, it’s the sort of thing you should be able to sort out without that.

“But he said what he said and I think he deserved to be found guilty.”

Forsythe, of Newtown, was ordered to pay £200 in costs in the hearing at Welshpool Magistrates Court.
The Daily Mail[/quote]

Mick was later heard softly singing the tune…
“They broke into our Dublin home, the dirty English dogs.
They took away my sister and they beat my Da with logs.
Limey scum, limey scum, I toss a bomb and still they come.” Everybody! “Limey scum, limey scum…”

#2

There’s no doubting you’re an enigma, there TC. Bad mouthing terrorists all over the show and yet here gleefully singing their songs.

Anyway, you’d think the real problem here is that she is Welsh and was called English. Meanwhile, I hear you can be sued in Australia for calling a pom a pom, you don’t even have to add “whinging.”

HG

#3

HGC -
“Bad mouthing terrorists…” is the least of my sins.

Flinging names about to those deemed worthy of the epithet also has an NT$ value penalty here on the island.

(as my wife frequently reminds me)

#4

And yet apparently there’s no such issue in HK, which is probably why the natives feel so smug about calling whitey gweilo. And on a side issue, I saw a remarkable bottle of rubbing lotion in a HK pharmacy yesterday, and witnessed by our dear Lord Lucan. The stuff was called 正黑鬼油 Zheng hei guai you, which can be translated as “Correcting nigger oil” - hei gui, hac gwei in Cantonese (lit black demon) is always used for “nigger.” The English name was a bizzarre typo - Darikie. Apparently this lotion is from that bastion of racial harmony, Singapore.

HG

#5

I wish I could sue everyone that called me English. It happens almost every day (after being called American usually).

#6

well it all balances out in the end anyway.

#7

People confuse the term English and Brits, and tend to lump them together. All England teams play “God Save the Queen” at sports gatherings, the national anthem of the UK + NI not England, perhaps leading to confusion between being British and being English. For some people it seems the terms are interchangeable

On a side note two things:
The “injustices” forced on the Irish did not come exclusively from the English. Balfour and Lloyd George were Welsh. The Scottish nationalists refused Home Rule for Ireland in 1914, while the English liberals wanted to grant it.
Irish people who sing republican songs, often are found supporting English club soccer teams.

#8

[color=red]Pedant Alert![/color]

The UK includes Northern Ireland - you don’t need to add it.

#9

UK of GB + NI

#10

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]And yet apparently there’s no such issue in HK, which is probably why the natives feel so smug about calling whitey gweilo. And on a side issue, I saw a remarkable bottle of rubbing lotion in a HK pharmacy yesterday, and witnessed by our dear Lord Lucan. The stuff was called 正黑鬼油 Zheng hei guai you, which can be translated as “Correcting nigger oil” - hei gui, hac gwei in Cantonese (lit black demon) is always used for “nigger.” The English name was a bizzarre typo - Darikie. Apparently this lotion is from that bastion of racial harmony, Singapore.

HG[/quote]

I think you’re exaggerating:

It’s probably more like: Keep it Real Brother’s Oil. or Real Black Man’s Oil, or for the hippity hoppity, Nizzle Oil.

:laughing:

But, there’s no way, however racist Chinese may be, that there’s anything equivalent to that loaded word “nigger.”

#11

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]PC run amuck…didn’t know that the “English” are now considered a ‘race.’[/quote]Yes, according to the Commision for Racial Equality, “Scottish” is also a race.

One of the basic tenents of English law, especially during the 70’s and 80’s was “innocent until proven Irish”. Now it’s “innocent until proven Muslim”

#12

[quote=“TNT”]People confuse the term English and Brits, and tend to lump them together. All England teams play “God Save the Queen” at sports gatherings, the national anthem of the UK + NI not England, perhaps leading to confusion between being British and being English. For some people it seems the terms are interchangeable

On a side note two things:
The “injustices” forced on the Irish did not come exclusively from the English. Balfour and Lloyd George were Welsh. The Scottish nationalists refused Home Rule for Ireland in 1914, while the English liberals wanted to grant it.
Irish people who sing republican songs, often are found supporting English club soccer teams.[/quote]

Yeah I agree. I hate that Brit term the “educated” classes use in Taiwan to say that you are from the UK. Brit reminds me of Tony Blair. I’m glad they sued the welsh sheep shagger. About time racial discrimination was applied to all.

Brit yuk what an ugly PC term

#13

[quote=“fenlander”] Brit reminds me of Tony Blair. I’m glad they sued the welsh sheep shagger.

[/quote]

Sedgefield, I thing is where he is from, but his grandfather from Donegal in the northwest of Ireland was probably a sheepshagger

#14

I think you’re misinterpreting this in this particular case, though there is plenty of racism in HK to go around.

Yes, 黑鬼 is the version of 鬼佬 reserved for people of color. However, it is also a term used in some texts to refer to an evil spirit that wrecks your health. The fact that it is from Singapore and not Hong Kong makes me think it’s not actually meant to refer to people. Of course, you could still be right, but in this case I don’t think that is the meaning.

Honestly, though, I think the whole getting sued for calling someone a name is ridiculous. Unless there is some sort of substantial loss (and a minor loss of face ain’t that), then government should keep its hands off.

#15

Wrong. 黑鬼 does mean “nigger,” according to a former Chinese teacher. The PC term is 黑人. Speaking of PC, being prosecuted by the state for calling someone an English bitch is WAY beyond the pale.

#16

Wrong. 黑鬼 does mean “nigger,” according to a former Chinese teacher. The PC term is 黑人. Speaking of PC, being prosecuted by the state for calling someone an English bitch is WAY beyond the pale.[/quote]
I don’t think Jack Burton is arguing that 黑鬼 is not the semantic equivalent of the n-word. It is definitely a pejorative, and more so than the relatively tame 鬼佬 used for whites. But in terms of the power to offend, 黑鬼 “pales” in comparison to the n-word. Of course, if more Westerners spoke Cantonese that might change, but as things are, Chinese racial slurs don’t have much of a bite to them. It’s not because there’s any less racist intent, but because people have not given Chinese words as much meaning and power.

#17

Wrong. 黑鬼 does mean “nigger,” according to a former Chinese teacher. The PC term is 黑人. Speaking of PC, being prosecuted by the state for calling someone an English bitch is WAY beyond the pale.[/quote]

You’re both right…or wrong. The is a big difference between how the words nigger and 黑鬼 are used. I would say that in the North American context, it is quite difficult to use the word nigger without a tremendous amount of negativity that goes along with it. The English word is very powerful. The same does not hold true for 黑鬼. The Chinese teacher is right, but only in the sense that nigger is a loose translation for 黑鬼. But Jack Burton is also right in saying that the amount of “loading” behind those two terms is vastly different.

#18

I imagine that’s because racism is the norm in China, particularly against dark skinned people. When it’s a given that everyone you’re talking to already thinks that black people are violent and stupid to begin with, it doesn’t matter if you call them blacks or niggers.

My perception of Chinese racism is based on purely ancedotal experience of course. I don’t have any statistics that say Chinese people are racist against xyz.

#19

I don’t think that’s it, 黑鬼 is simply not nearly as pejorative as nigger. In fact, it’s often used as a neutral term. Some Chinese people have also used 黑鬼 as a nickname for themselves because they read the term by its literal meaning instead of all that loaded meaning behind nigger. If 黑鬼 is as loaded as nigger, why would any Chinese person (some quite respectable) use it as a nickname? Even when speaking glowingly about someone that is black (i.e. celebrities, certain politicians), the term 黑鬼 still comes up in colloquial use. In those contexts, 黑鬼 just means black, nothing else. Similarly, there’s a term called 紅鬼 that’s used to describe native Americans. Whether it is pejorative or not depends on the way it’s used.

While 鬼 (ghost/ghouls) started off as a strong pejorative for whites, over the years it has evolved into becoming a mild pejorative to a neutral term for foreigners in general. Since it has been used to referred to whites for so long, other modifiers are place in front to differentiate the plain old regular white 鬼 from other foreigners with a different skin colour. Hence, the birth of 黑鬼 and 紅鬼. Now if you were to add a 子 as a suffix, then that would become a strong pejorative.

In English, are there any terms for blacks that are only mildly derogatory and widely used? It seems like you either go with non-offending terms or you go with nigger. There’s not a lot to choose from in between.

#20

Hmm…very odd. :ponder:

When a classmate asked our teacher -a native Mandarin speaker from Taiwan- he was adamant that “hei gui” was extremely rude and should never be used. He specifically said that it translates to the n-word, and that we should only use “hei ren” when referring to black people. I can’t imagine he had any incentive to mislead us on the term. Perhaps he thinks even the colloquial use is offensive and didn’t want us to get started using it.