Into the valley of death

In true British style, the BBC and assorted others are making a big deal about the 150th anniversary of ‘The Charge of the Light Brigade’.

For those of you who are not students of the empire’s most famous cock-ups, this was the occasion where a bunch of squabbling aristocrats managed to make such a balls-up of a simple task like writing and reading a set of orders that 700 men on horseback found themselves attacking cannon that were firing on them from three sides.

We love our failures in Britain, so there are exhibitions and even a re-enactment taking place. And, as usual, the beeb has managed to produce a whole bunch of reports saying pretty much the same thing without addressing the central issue: did the charge of the light brigade succeed, or not?

Does anyone know?

national-army-museum.ac.uk/pages/charge.html
blacksea-crimea.com/Places/Balaklava.html
loc.gov/rr/print/coll/251_fen.html

From this battle we also got the memorable phrase, “The thin red line”, describing a valiant Scots regiment that stood in two lines and repulsed a massed Russian cavalry charge.

Despite the doomed cavalry charge, Balaclava was considered a victory for the British: They retained the field.

Compare Dunkirk -another rout that became a victory of the stiff upper lip and heroism in retreat. Australians are not immune - we celebrate the defeat at the Gallipoli landings in 1915 as a national ‘baptism in blood’! Despite the fact that it was a disaster that achieved no military goal.

Do Americans celebrate the Bay of Pigs? It’s crying out for a barbecue…

My home town in Quebec is called Dollard Des Ormeaux. It is named after a guy, who, with the help of 9 young lads, held off an entire Iroquois war party bent on invading early Montreal. Apparently, DDO was quite the hero as he so impressed the Mohawks with his little band that could fierceness, they decided to turn tails and head back towards present day Ontario, a decision that may have changed history, as Montreal would have been ill-prepared for the onslaught. Thus our town’s name.

Now, why is this in this thread…another great moment in War-sports.

You see, DDO is also credited (at least what my grade 5 teacher told me) with making the 1st bomb. It blew him and the 9 boys to smithereens, but it did scare off the Mohawks.

So, he was made into a hero. Evidence later surfaced that he was a smuggler and slave trader escaping prosecution in Montreal and inadvertantly encountered the invading war party.

Funny how history and fact can be so juxtaposed.

Well I can tell you that New Zealand sure doesn’t celebrate Gallipoli. We commemorate it and remember the soldiers who died, and it is recognised as a major event in the national identity and in forging Australia-New Zealand ties, but I haven’t seen anyone celebrate it.

yes COMMEMORATE, i hadn’t had my coffee

Here’s my favorite Crimean War website (love their motto!):

hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk/cwrs1.html

I often wonder what would have happened if Russia had won. Perhaps they would have ended up with Anatolia, greater Romania, and Bulgaria–a new Byzantium?

Oh, btw–Americans look back fondly on Little Big Horn (Custer’s side, of course) and the Alamo (the Texian side). Nothing for Vietnam, though.

Picketts Charge on the third day of Gettysburg ranks right up there on the list of “Stupid things Americans have done in battle”. The Light Brigade’s casaulty rate was about 40% while Picketts 15,000 lost about 60% (I hope my numbers are right :blush: )

Lee’s decision to send to slaughter Picketts’ Virginians ranks right there with Burnsides frontal assault of Mayne’s Ridge (Spelling is wrong) at the Battle of Fredericksburg.

Terrible, terrible decisions though coming from Burnside one shouldn’t be surprised. Lee should have known better. Interesting to think what would have happened if Stonewall Jackson was at Gettysburg, especially the first day of the battle.

Remember the Alamo?

If the Alamo had had a back door there would be no State of Texas.

“Don’t Forget the Maine” - sparked (no pun intended) yellow jounalism - one of the first uses of mass media to launch a small war. W/out out that where would Cuba be? Or the Phillipines?

Gee, after reading the title of this thread I thought that the topic was attempts to forge relationships with female humans…

[quote=“Tigerman”]Gee, after reading the title of this thread I thought that the topic was attempts to forge relationships with female humans…

[quote=“Michael Franks”]
Whenever I explore the land of Yin
I always take one on the chin…
[/quote][/quote]

Now that’s cunning linguistics.

[quote=“Tigerman”]Gee, after reading the title of this thread I thought that the topic was attempts to forge relationships with female humans…

[quote=“Michael Franks”]
Whenever I explore the land of Yin
I always take one on the chin…
[/quote][/quote]

Glad you liked that. Now, we’re going to get floundered. :slight_smile:

[quote=“Tigerman”][quote=“Tigerman”]Gee, after reading the title of this thread I thought that the topic was attempts to forge relationships with female humans…

[quote=“Michael Franks”]
Whenever I explore the land of Yin
I always take one on the chin…
[/quote][/quote]

Glad you liked that. Now, we’re going to get floundered. :slight_smile:[/quote]

Or worse… :astonished: That’s okay…I’d go down with you anyday.

Don’t mind the new sig there TM it’s a big:wink: :wink: if u know what I mean…still alot of love in my heart for soft cuddly republicans like…erm…Dofu…

Ummm…speaking of ill-timed battles…just to stay on topic…

Back on topic, lets’s not forget that glorious British adventure which became known as the Battle of the Somme. 58,000 casualties (a third of them killed) on the first day alone caused in no small part by the order for the soldiers to walk across no-man’s land and not leg it. This gave the German lines ample time to climb out from the concrete bunkers where they had been waiting out the artilery bombardment and prepare the machine guns for some easy shooting practice. The reason the soldiers were told to walk? They were mainly members of Kitchener’s volunteer army and were not trusted to be able to double over no man’s land in good order.Other problems included the fact that the artilery schrapnel, made of lead, failed to destroy the barbed wire (I believe made of iron) defenses.

Well, we certainly know the Cubans love their Pigs! :bravo: :wink:

Cuban Roast Pork Recipe
INGREDIENTS:
2 teaspoons cumin seeds
1/2 teaspoon whole black peppercorns
4 cloves garlic, chopped
2 teaspoons salt
1 teaspoon dried oregano
1/3 cup orange juice
1/3 cup dry sherry
3 tablespoons lemon juice
3 tablespoons fresh lime juice
2 tablespoons olive oil
4 pounds pork shoulder, trimmed and tied

DIRECTIONS:
Heat a small, heavy skillet over medium heat. Add the cumin seeds and peppercorns to the pan; stir constantly until fragrant and beginning to brown, about 2 minutes. Cool.
Using a mortar and pestle, crush toasted spices with garlic, salt, and oregano to make a paste. You can also do this in the small bowl of a food processor. Transfer to a small bowl, and stir in orange juice, lime juice, lemon juice, sherry, and olive oil.
Place the pork in a large resealable plastic bag. Pour citrus marinade over meat, and seal. Refrigerate for 12 to 24 hours, turning the bag over occasionally.
Preheat the oven to 325 degrees F (165 degrees C).
Transfer pork and marinade to a roasting pan, and place in the oven. Roast for about 2 1/2 hours, basting with pan juices occasionally, or until an instant read thermometer inserted in the center reads 145 degrees F (63 degrees C). Add small amounts of water to the pan if it dries out. Transfer the pork to a carving board, cover loosely with foil, and let rest for 15 minutes. Carve, and serve.

Cuban Pork Sandwiches
INGREDIENTS:

1 5 to 6 pound pork shoulder roast
2 tablespoons brown sugar
2 teaspoons white pepper
2 teaspoons dry mustard
1 teaspoon garlic powder
1 teaspoon onion powder
1 teaspoon paprika
bourbon mop
PREPARATION:

Combine all ingredients except the pork roast. Mix well to form a rub and apply evenly to the pork roast. Wrap roast in plastic and refrigerate over night. Remove roast from refrigerator and allow to sit for about 45 minutes. Prepare grill for rotisserie cooking and preheat. Place roast on rotisserie over a low direct heat. Cook for about 30 minutes per pound or 3 to 3 1/3 hours. The internal temperature should reach about 170 degrees F. Baste pork with bourbon mop every 20 minutes. When done remove from grill and let sit for about 20 minutes. Cut into slices and serve.

INGREDIENTS:

1 5 to 6 pound pork shoulder roast
2 tablespoons brown sugar
2 teaspoons white pepper
2 teaspoons dry mustard
1 teaspoon garlic powder
1 teaspoon onion powder
1 teaspoon paprika
bourbon mop
PREPARATION:

Combine all ingredients except the pork roast. Mix well to form a rub and apply evenly to the pork roast. Wrap roast in plastic and refrigerate over night. Remove roast from refrigerator and allow to sit for about 45 minutes. Prepare grill for rotisserie cooking and preheat. Place roast on rotisserie over a low direct heat. Cook for about 30 minutes per pound or 3 to 3 1/3 hours. The internal temperature should reach about 170 degrees F. Baste pork with bourbon mop every 20 minutes. When done remove from grill and let sit for about 20 minutes. Cut into slices and serve.

I disagree. The Charge was a fuck-up, Dunkirk was the best possible outcome after a massive failure. Crushing defeat was averted, and Britain survived to fight another day. Everyone in Britain was naturally delighted to have saved a quarter of a million men (I’m a bit hazy on the numbers), who incidentally happened to represent their ability to resist fascism. Wouldn’t you be pleased to hear that the Nazis wouldn’t be landing next week after all?

Given the apparent hopelessness of the situation, I think the government had every right to present the evacuation as a victory. (Even though it owed a great deal to the fact that Hitler chose not to press his advantage.) I don’t think anyone claimed the Battle of France as a victory, not on our side anyway.

The Light Brigade debacle is a totally different situation. There was an enormous screw-up, resulting in a bunch of people being ordered to do something that was very likely to get them all killed. They knew they were not likely to come back, but they went anyway - proudly. That’s the difference. Dunkirk was making the best of a bad job, The Charge of the Light Brigade was pride in devotion to duty.

Stupid though the whole mess was, it has a romance about it that being machine-gunned at The Somme never will. But people still talk with pride of WWI officers leading their men against heavy machine guns armed with nothing but a swagger stick. I saw it referred to recently as ‘British bloody-mindedness’.

Would the guys at the Alamo have run away given the chance? DB suggested they would have. I suspect that ‘British bloody-mindedness’ is universal and that Davy Crocket and friends would have stayed anyway. Isn’t there a story about Poland having no tanks to resist Germany’s armour when WWII started, so they sent cavalry instead? Men on horses against tanks! Absurd, futile, maybe not even true, but guaranteed to impress anyone with even an ounce of romance in them.

And sometimes the idiots win. Rourke’s Drift, anyone?