Iraq security: on to plan D (or is it G? H?... Q?)

Are things still getting better?
Uh, no.

[quote=“NYT: US to Review Baghdad Plan”][b]The American military’s stepped-up campaign to staunch unrelenting bloodshed in the capital under an ambitious new security plan that was unveiled in August has failed to reduce the violence, a military spokesman said Thursday.

Instead, attacks have actually jumped more than 20 percent over the first three weeks of the holy month of Ramadan, compared to the previous three weeks, said Gen. William Caldwell, the military’s chief spokesman in Iraq.[/b]

In an unusually gloomy assessment, General Caldwell called the spike in attacks “disheartening” and added that the American military was “working closely with the government of Iraq to determine how to best refocus our efforts.”

[b]It is unclear, however, what other options might be available to American military commanders if their current efforts fail. Over the past year, American forces had begun withdrawing from large areas of the capital, encouraging Iraqi Army and police forces to take the lead. That policy, however, was followed by escalating levels of sectarian attacks, particularly after the bombing of a sacred Shiite shrine in Samara in February.

In August, military commanders reversed course and returned troops in force to the neighborhoods they had once patrolled. Officials at the time made clear the urgency of the task, saying that whatever unfolded in Baghdad could very well determine the outcome of the war.[/b]

American troops, along with their Iraqi counterparts, began conducting concentrated neighborhood-by-neighborhood sweeps of troubled areas, searching homes, setting up checkpoints and systematically clearing the areas of insurgents and militants participating in sectarian death squads.

Those sweeps have made a difference in some areas, General Caldwell said, but ultimately have not met military commanders’ “overall expectations of sustaining a reduction in the levels of violence.”

In a worrisome development, General Caldwell revealed Thursday that American troops had to return last week to Dora, a troubled southern Baghdad neighborhood that had been a showcase of the new security plan and was one of the first areas to be cleared.[/quote]

The Green Zone… er… Iraqi government recently said that the violence could be brought under control in a couple of months if Iran and Syria were brought in. Is that in the works? Somehow, I doubt it. Unless, that is, such is James Baker’s next task… he’s piped up about the necessity of talking to everyone, including the Syrians. If that’s not in the works, what’s next? Soft power been talked up, but I don’t think the troops on the ground, nor the people, are prepared, at this point, to win over hearts and minds. So, no input from the neighbours, no making nice with the locals, what’s Plan D (F/G/H, or whatever it is)?

Truth is they don’t have a plan. Not a real plan and they won’t have one until they answered ONE question: Are they an occupation force or a liberation force? Plan would be different for each, won’t it?

At the onset it was called the “war of liberation” and it was stressed that they weren’t an occupation force. Couple of years down the line and they are still busy “liberating”? Bloody hell!

The poor military commanders and their subordinates must really struggle to plan, motivate, mobilze if they don’t know what their true purpose is. How do you send thousands of troops out there if you don’t know what your ultimate goal is?

The military has my sympathies and understanding because they are where they are not because they want to be there, but because of George the Conquerer, the saviour of all mankind, the world’s WMD sniff dog, the nuclear watch dog and axis of evil super heroe.

Maybe this whole thing is taking so long because they got a team of geologists out there looking for oil? Especially since the WMD are still missing…

I am so touched by the concern and consideration being expressed here for the poor Iraqui peoples.
I am…verklempt!

Oh…and that “George the Conquerer” was an especially nice touch… :bravo:

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]I am so touched by the concern and consideration being expressed here for the poor Iraqui peoples.
I am…verklempt![/quote]
And I am touched by the sarcasm. Freedom’s on the march… it’s about the liberation… the poor Iraqi people suffering under Saddam… it’s about them standing up… Or is it not about them, but still about 9/11? Oh right, Afghanistan was for that one, Iraq is for the next one… that is, it’s creating the conditions leading to the next one–less secure, right? Hmmm… it’s not about “the poor Iraqui peoples”, it’s not about 9/11, it’s not about greater security, it’s not about the oil… are we down to “he tried to kill my daddy” yet? Btw, why hasn’t Saddam been charged with that?

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]I am so touched by the concern and consideration being expressed here for the poor Iraqui peoples.
I am…verklempt!

Oh…and that “George the Conquerer” was an especially nice touch… :bravo:

[/quote]

you keep coming up with the same attitude over and over again,

would you still have the same view on things if your son was fighting there,or your brother??

apparently,even bush starts to see similarities between Iraq and 'nam :frowning:

[quote=“Jaboney”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]I am so touched by the concern and consideration being expressed here for the poor Iraqui peoples.
I am…verklempt![/quote]
And I am touched by the sarcasm. Freedom’s on the march… it’s about the liberation… the poor Iraqi people suffering under Saddam… it’s about them standing up… Or is it not about them, but still about 9/11? Oh right, Afghanistan was for that one, Iraq is for the next one… that is, it’s creating the conditions leading to the next one–less secure, right? Hmmm… it’s not about “the poor Iraqui peoples”, it’s not about 9/11, it’s not about greater security, it’s not about the oil… are we down to “he tried to kill my daddy” yet? Btw, why hasn’t Saddam been charged with that?[/quote]Jaboney -
Against my better judgment I will seriously reply to whatever it is that you wrote as a post.
1st - I don’t do sarcasm - it was a very nuanced attempt at humor.
Iraq is in bad shape and will probably get worse. But things have fundamentally changed there. And it will be a long, slow and bloody climb into a nation where the rule of law and freedom is made available for everyone. No one with any sense expected or expects otherwise.
If all you want to hear is bad news; ots there in abundance. But there are positive things and signs of progress happening everyday. ard to find, yes, but its happening.
I really can’t make heads or tails out of your “9/11, he tried to kill my daddy” crap. No comment there.
Saddam’s charges? Public record. What do you disagree with?
Afghanistan is still a hot place out in the boonies. Al Quieda is regrouping in the hinterlands along the Paki/Afghani border areas. That will have to be dealt with for quite a while until its just too costly for their supporters. Thta not going to go away anytime soon. Al Quieda is also building it base of operations over in Somalia. Look for things to be in the news as actions their ramp up.
Oil, as has always been the case, OPEC controls almost all of that. We did not attack OPEC.

Dabilndfrog -

[quote]you keep coming up with the same attitude over and over again,
would you still have the same view on things if your son was fighting there,or your brother??
apparently,even bush starts to see similarities between Iraq and 'nam Sad[/quote]
I have a close nephew who was in Iraq and has been in and out of Afghanistan. I do support him, his team and their missions. He is an adult. Everyone in theater is a volunteer. Whats your point? If any?
The “similarity” was a comment about The 1968 Tet Offensive and the current increase in terrorist actions in the days before the coming November elections in the USA.
You go read up on the 1968 Tet Offensive launched by the NVA/Viet Cong cadres and we can start a new thread discussing this.
I will be glad to participate in this one.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]I am so touched by the concern and consideration being expressed here for the poor Iraqui peoples.
I am…verklempt![/quote]Jaboney -
Against my better judgment I will seriously reply to whatever it is that you wrote as a post.
1st - I don’t do sarcasm - it was a very nuanced attempt at humor. [/quote]
Ok. So what’s the joke?
In my version, the joke is the invasion and various reasons/ excuses for it.
What’s the punchline and nuances of your joke? I don’t get it.

[quote=“Jaboney”] I don’t get it.[/quote]Yep… :idunno:
I gave a response.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“Jaboney”] I don’t get it.[/quote]Yep… :idunno:
I gave a response.[/quote]

TC, if you don’t mind, I’ll do the ‘spookisms’ around here. Isn’t one of us making incomprehensibly obscure references enough?

good description of sarcasm

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]
Iraq is in bad shape and will probably get worse. [/quote]

really? someone call reuters,we’ve got a scoop…

for the better? proof pls…
if changes made the place worst,then what was the need??

ahhh,so you finally admit that Bush is a retard, he, and all the pro-war americans were talking about a very swift kick up the ass,…looks like the boot got jammed… :laughing:

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]
If all you want to hear is bad news; ots there in abundance. But there are positive things and signs of progress happening everyday. ard to find, yes, but its happening.[/quote]

yeah, you posted some youtube videos showing some of the troops having fun and poncing around on BMX and making fun…truth is,this is rare occurance,not at all a reflection of the morale of the troops at present,now about the iraqi side,let’s not even begin…

let’s not fool ourselves,US led forces will NEVER go to somalia even if the threat is 10 times bigger there.
there’s nothing to be gained there,hence there will not be any involvement.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]
Oil,OPEC controls almost all of that. [/quote]

that “almost” is a very important word,when a group owns and sell something you can’t live without at the price they want,it’s quite attractive to try and get whatever they don’t own,may it be just crumbs,because crumbs in this instance are worth billions of $

bush is a cretin,but those around him would never go against OPEC,damn,they are the very ones who financed his campaign to be where he is now…

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]

Dabilndfrog -

I have a close nephew who was in Iraq and has been in and out of Afghanistan. I do support him, his team and their missions. He is an adult. Everyone in theater is a volunteer. Whats your point? If any?[/quote]

volunteer??

i think not,
right now a kid MIGHT get away with staying home,since opinions have changed,but when US launched their effort,tell me what kid would have been okay to stay at home??
with a father like you,what’s the choice a kid have?
going to war because that’s daddy’s wish or staying at home and being called a Faggot by a whole comunity?

don’t tell me that right this moment,the will to join as a volunteer is as big as it was early in the war,peoples are waking up!

i’ve seen videos about the way “recruitment units” were going around american suburbs to get kids to go to war,sick videos if you ask me,fake promises,and use of desilusioned kids.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]
The “similarity” was a comment about The 1968 Tet Offensive and the current increase in terrorist actions in the days before the coming November elections in the USA.
You go read up on the 1968 Tet Offensive launched by the NVA/Viet Cong cadres and we can start a new thread discussing this.
I will be glad to participate in this one.[/quote]

that’s the spin the white house was very swift to put in place,same old story, dubbya open his mouth and spew shit,then some spokewoman is rushed to clear things up…

whatever he meant or not, iraq is another 'nam,period.

Maybe this is the plan??

Pretty hard to imagine how it would be allowed/ excused by the occupation forces:
“Yeah, we’ve got a big army, but really, the domestic political situation is beyond our control…” :laughing: Whatever. Conspiracy theories… gotta love 'em.

[quote=“Some crazy guy”] The clock is ticking for Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, the hapless, feckless leader of the Shiite fundamentalist party Al Dawa. From Washington, London, Baghdad, and other capitals come rumors that Maliki’s government will soon be overthrown by a nationalist general or colonel or that he will resign in favor of an emergency “government of national salvation.”

A coup d'état in Iraq would put a period - or rather an exclamation point - at the end of the Bush administration's bungled experiment with democracy there. And it would open an entirely new phase in that country's post-2003 national nightmare. Would it result in the creation of a Saddam-like strongman to rule Iraq with a heavy hand? Or would it force the warring parties (Sunni insurgents, Iranian-backed Shiite militias, and Kurdish warlords) to intensify the bloody civil war that is tearing Iraq apart? No one knows.

As the carnage in Iraq reaches new heights of barbarism, what's clear is the utter uselessness of Maliki's government. It is simply incapable of staunching the bloodletting. Despite weeks of blunt warnings from U.S. officials that time was running out for him, on Sunday the Prime Minister announced yet again that efforts to disarm Iraq's militias would be postponed. "The initial date we've set for disbanding the militias is the end of this year or the beginning of next year," he said, according to USA Today. Still, whatever form it might take, a coup d'état stands an excellent chance of making a horrible situation worse. Rather than toy with yet another misstep, the capstone in a seemingly endless series of errors in Iraq, the Bush administration - including the increasingly powerful "realist," anti-neoconservative policy types now emerging in Washington - would do far better to start planning for a quick exit.[/quote]

[quote=“dablindfrog”]blah blah blah misquote, out of context, out right change of wording, non reply, wrong quote, blah blah blah blah[/quote]dablindfrog -
A very typical reply from someone who has no clear idea of what they are replying to or sufficient information to make an intelligent reply.
This appears to be a pattern for you, at least on this range of topics.
Lets just chalk it up to English not being your main language and leave it at that.

Example:nephew - the male child of ones sibling. Sibling means ones brother or sister. A nephew is the male child of ones brother or sister.

“The current increase in terrorist actions” – actually a rise in insurgent actions against the illegal invasion and occupation – is part of a trend dating back to the summer. The summer saw a 15% increase in attacks, according to the Pentagon’s report released early last month. In other words, the “rise” is true only if one takes events out of context – attacks have been more less increasing for the last three years.

In any case the Bush Administration’s insanity has been badly defeated, and if the insurgents can end the war by affecting US elections, getting a sane party back in power, recognizing the defeat, and leaving, then more power to 'em. Many more lives will be saved. But I doubt that the insurgents are thinking along the lines of a Tet Offensive – they are not centrally controlled, and the US citizenry stopped believing in the “light at the end of the tunnel” nonsense years ago.

Michael

Vork -
Please do not edit my posts when you quote me. The context of the comment is to relect to medias fixation on Iraq = Viet Nam and the media’s attempted comparison to the 1958 Tet Offensive.
While this was widely reported as a “victory” for the NVA cadre, in reality it was a debilitating defeat for them. The mainstream media(MSM) including Uncle Walter and Smilin’ Dan Rather, who were vocally opposed to the US involvement in Viet Nam, lied, blatantly, to the US public about this action. The propagation of this lie affected the entire countries thinking about our chances of sucess in VN. Which at that poit in time were pretty darn good.
The similarity is todays media shilling for the terrorists and damming with faint praise the actual positive occurrences that are happening in Iraq.
Do not misquote or misunderstand me, Iraq is a hot spot. It will continue to be for quite some time. But as has been demonstrated repeatedly in the past, to cut and run now does the Iraqi people, and the rest of the Middle East no good turn.

Peoples adolescent anti-Bush feelings are another factor in this mess. One that has scant basis in reality. As do their repeated belittling statements.

But then, I make no pretense of speaking for the “U.S. citizenry,” only myself.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Vork -
Please do not edit my posts when you quote me. The context of the comment is to relect to medias fixation on Iraq = Viet Nam and the media’s attempted comparison to the 1958 Tet Offensive.[/quote]

Tet was '68, not '58.

Of course I will remove extraneous material in other people’s post whom I cite. That is a politeness to the owners of the forum. Bandwidth costs money!

It was a political victory and military victory, though a tactical defeat in most places. The difference between these different ways of looking at events has apparently escaped everyone on the conservative side. As is happening today in Iraq.

The media did not lie about the success of the action. Rather, more intelligent commentators realized its political import. The US military and the government had repeatedly stated that victory was just around the corner. Tet gave that lie, and showed that the government and its supporters were living on delusions.

Not just Cronkite, who in fact remained distanced and bland until Tet. The Wall Street Journal also ran a powerful editorial saying that Vietnam was doomed. Art Buchwald attacked the news management campaign with satirical portrayals of Custer announcing success is just around the corner.

And of course, as polls showed Cronkite and the media were lagging the swing in public opinion. They reflected, rather than shaped, attitudes. The same things occurred than as occurred now – recruiting plummeted, draftees lacked the necessary quality, officer corps was stretched thin, our allies saw the horror and failure and refused to provide more fodder, and so on. The Vietnamese did not have to win; they simply had to bleed us until we quit. Which is what they did, and what we did, and what the freedom fighters in iraq are doing now.

Tet, BTW, was not aimed at US opinion, but at South Vietnamese opinion. Giap was not concerned about the US election, since it would simply reshuffle the ruling class in the US. A good Marxist, Giap believed that the Establishment goals would remain the same no matter who it put into office.

We were already beaten at that point as well. The problem, as now, was getting the Administration and its supporters to grow up and face failure. High officials on both side conceded that the war had stalemated, and hanoi understood that stalemate favored the North.

Yes, I understand the Germans built schools in Poland and installed sewers too…

We’re beaten, TainanDon. As long as we are there Iraq has no chance for stability, since we are part of the problem, not the solution. Failure to acknowledge defeat shows the lack of maturity you accuse your opponents of. Even the President’s most ardent followers are hoping to find a way to exit, as the Taipei Times reported just today.

There’s nothing adolescent about being anti-Bush – it is a feeling found in the population of the entire planet, save for the 35% in the US who believe the Great Torturer is doing a fantastic job. Do you think the rendition program, the torture at Guantanamo and elsewhere, the spying on our own citizens, the suspension and assaults on civil rights, and the attacks on administration critics and dissenting citizens are “mature”? Do you think it is mature to continue to pursue failure at the cost of hundreds of thousands dead, and the biggest budget deficits in our nation’s history? That it is mature to divide the nation and damage it civil fabric? Just imagine how many schools, roads, parks, scholarships, research, and real defense needs could have been provided for by the hundreds of billions Bush has wasted on this defeat. We will be a generation recovering from this disaster.

Michael

Vorkosian -
Splendid job of re-writing history re:your Tet ‘68 conclusions.
As to comparing the US efforts in Iraq with Nazi Germanys’ action in Poland, that pretty much concludes my debates with you.
Save you ‘editing’ for your convenience.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Vorkosian -
Splendid job of re-writing history re:your Tet '68 conclusions.[/quote]

Try learning some, TDon; I didn’t rewrite anything. I just pulled up several of the books on my shelf and cracked them open. Long before Tet the US allies had given up on that sick, failed war. Blaming the media is simply the last desperate heave of an Establishment that won’t admit how badly it failed in both Vietnam and Iraq. “We could have won but for the media!” is the US equivalent of the Yakasuni Shrine and the Stab in the Back! of 1914 whose myth eventually helped put Hitler into power.

You’re welcome to put up any facts and argument, but your inability to handle either is already pretty well known around these parts.

I was sure it would. After all, continued debate would meaning facing what we have become – a country wrecked in an illegal and unnecessary war, more than 600,000 Iraqis dead who otherwise would be alive, whole cities flattened, their menfolk forced at gunpoint to remain in the war zone (just like Warsaw Ghetto?), the whole world hating us…the difference between the US invasion of Iraq and the German invasion of Poland is one of degree, not kind, though I am sure with a few more years of the current success, our death toll will reach Nazi levels. And you will still be complaining that media doesn’t show anything good.

I can see why you would want to give up discussion, considering the sickness of the policies you would have to support. There’s a reason why the entire civilized world objects to our policies, TDon: because we aren’t part of the civilized world anymore.

Michael

Tainan Cowboy=0vv()3[)

Many senior Republicans believe the “Bush Doctrine” has hit a wall in Iraq and lies in ruins. The rebels, including many foreign policy veterans close to the president’s father, see it as an obstacle to stabilising Iraq and extricating US forces. But they have decided that earlier, head-on challenges have only deepened the president’s resolve, and a less confrontational approach was needed that avoided blame for past mistakes if there was to be any hope of a fundamental rethink.

“It’s a polite rebellion by moderate and military-minded Republicans,” said Steven Clemons, a Washington analyst. “Any walk-away from the Bush line is going to be covered with a lot of cosmetics to make it look like it’s not really a big change.” . . .

The eight options: what Washington and London are discussing

1 British out now . . . (the ‘every man for himself’ option)

2 US coalition out now . . . (‘cut and run’)

3 Phased withdrawal . . . (current plan. doesn’t ‘seem to be working out too well’)

4 Talk to Iran and Syria . . . (maybe after we invade them first}

5 Iraqi strongman . . . (‘get me Saddam on the line’)

6 Break-up of Iraq . . . (al Qaeda’s first choice. creates the perfect terrorist haven in the heart of the Middle East)

7 Redeploy & contain . . . (retreat to desert outposts and watch the mayhem reach full flower from there while trying to keep it from spilling over into the rest of the Middle East. most likely option but nearly guaranteed to only delay the inevitable chain of events leading to Neo-Armageddon)

8 One last push . . . (the ‘hail mary’ pass. likely cosmetic cover for option #7)

[quote=“Vorkosigan”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]Vorkosian -
Splendid job of re-writing history re:your Tet '68 conclusions.[/quote]Try learning some, TDon; I didn’t rewrite anything. I just pulled up several of the books on my shelf and cracked them open. Long before Tet the US allies had given up on that sick, failed war. Blaming the media is simply the last desperate heave of an Establishment that won’t admit how badly it failed in both Vietnam and Iraq. “We could have won but for the media!” is the US equivalent of the Yakasuni Shrine and the Stab in the Back! of 1914 whose myth eventually helped put Hitler into power.
You’re welcome to put up any facts and argument, but your inability to handle either is already pretty well known around these parts.

[quote]As to comparing the US efforts in Iraq with Nazi Germanys’ action in Poland, that pretty much concludes my debates with you.[/quote]I was sure it would. After all, continued debate would meaning facing what we have become – a country wrecked in an illegal and unnecessary war, more than 600,000 Iraqis dead who otherwise would be alive, whole cities flattened, their menfolk forced at gunpoint to remain in the war zone (just like Warsaw Ghetto?), the whole world hating us…the difference between the US invasion of Iraq and the German invasion of Poland is one of degree, not kind, though I am sure with a few more years of the current success, our death toll will reach Nazi levels. And you will still be complaining that media doesn’t show anything good.
I can see why you would want to give up discussion, considering the sickness of the policies you would have to support.
There’s a reason why the entire civilized world objects to our policies, TDon: because we aren’t part of the civilized world anymore.
Michael[/quote]Vorkosigan -
My apologies for the mis-spelling of the name. It was an accident due to haste, nothing more.
To give due credit to your posts re:the Tet 1968 Offensive, how about having a separate thread created to discuss this?
If you could clearly state your thoughts and positions there it would allow a more focused posting of point/counter-points.
This was suggested to another poster a few days ago and still might be a fun thread.
Agreed?

And perhaps another thread could be created in which you could more clearly post your beliefs as to why the USA is the same as Nazi Germany.
How does that sound?

Regarding the bolded comments, is that the Goebbels or Chomsky method of debate?