Is an ARC *really* necessary?

This is so far just a thought that struck me:

  1. Is it legal to work with just a work permit and visa exempt entry? (assuming one does a visa run when required)
  2. Is it practically possible?

To me, it seems like the work permit allows for work in Taiwan, and the visa exempt allows one to stay here – so the combination seems legal. The law for illegal work only mentions work permit, and so far, immigrations have not cared about visa runs.

Regarding practicality… let’s disregard the obvious about leaving the country in and out. Apparently you can get an id number at immigrations without ARC, and use that to get a bank account. How about health insurance? Taxes? (seems to go by days on the island, not immigration status) How about a lease? (Since you have to show a lease to get an ARC, one should be able to rent without?).

There are some minor benefits of doing this (no need to give an adress and have police knocking on your door, no fingerprinting, and good chance not having to leave the country on the spot if fired, …), but overall it might not be worth the hassle. But that is not the issue now :slight_smile:

The company has the work permit, not you. The work permit is not like a green card, it is an ethereal construct, only the ARC is real. It doe snot exist without the ARC. You have to cash it in to become real with the ARC. If you are working with a visitor visa, you are working illegally.

If you are doing visa runs, you are not working legally, i.e. you have no work permit.

Without ARC, there is no wya to get NIH. You are on your own. As for taxes, it used to be you apid no problem. Now the tax office and NIA are connected, menaing they know if you are earning and have no work permit ARC. Of course, then you could have it all under the table, again, working illegally, and accept the consequences -fines and deportation- if and when they come.

Police stopped doing household visits like 10 years ago. And you have a higher shot of leaving the country anytime, without warning, if fired or found out, without time to pick your stuff and get your affairs in order.

Thank you for the swift response and your warnings. This is not a plan of mine, just checking what options there are (and finding reasons to actually read the laws). I am quite sure it is not intended to be ok to work on visa-exempt entries, but I could not find any catch. I did dig around a bit before posting here. Heck, wo an ARC one might not even have to do the health-check…

What you say though, contradicts in several matters what I have found on the net (but that does not mean you are wrong! It’s Taiwan after all… information is often wrong, contradictory or missing).

[quote=“Icon”]The company has the work permit, not you. The work permit is not like a green card, it is an ethereal construct, only the ARC is real. It doe snot exist without the ARC.

If you are doing visa runs, you are not working legally, i.e. you have no work permit.
[/quote]
Is there some other branch of regulation I am not aware of? Does an ARC say something about this? How is the work permit connected to the ARC? :eh:

What you say contradicts the English translation of the law (Article 43, employment act). Working illegally is specified as working when your employer has not got a work permit for you. No mention of ARC or visa.

There are vistor visas for employment purposes, but I know what you mean. :slight_smile:

[quote=“Icon”]
Police stopped doing household visits like 10 years ago. And you have a higher shot of leaving the country anytime, without warning, if fired or found out, without time to pick your stuff and get your affairs in order.[/quote]
The law specifying how the visits shall be done was last renewed March 2010. The law says they are mandated to check on everyone, and apart from unnanounced visits, one check shall be done in your fourth month of stay. (But, it’s Taiwan, so it does not mean anyone will visit…)

If there is a catch with working on repeated visa exempt entries, I think it is more likely to be within immigration laws (specifically, Article 29 (or 22) in Immigration act). Or that there are more detailed regulations decided by a ‘competent authority’…

Sorry if my response seems cold or hostile, that is not intended. :sunglasses:

Tapani,

I admire you for sifting through the immigration document for relevant points. You’d probably make a good lawyer.

What visitor visa allows employment?

I don’t know where the relevant law is detailed and I have no motivation to spend the time to search for it, but my understanding of the reality of the situation on the ground is exactly how Icon has described it.

[quote=“Tapani”]This is so far just a thought that struck me:

  1. Is it legal to work with just a work permit and visa exempt entry? (assuming one does a visa run when required)

  2. Is it practically possible? [/quote]

  3. NO

  4. As long as you don’t get caught because you will get deported

Tapani, even if you’re right that there is a loophole (and I doubt you are), what do you think would happen to someone caught working without an ARC? Are you under the impression that the authorities would say, “Why, you’re right! Thank you for pointing out this inconsistency in our laws. Here’s a gold star. You’re now free to carry on as you were, because Taiwan is all about the rule of law.”

[quote=“Satellite TV”][quote=“Tapani”]This is so far just a thought that struck me:

  1. Is it legal to work with just a work permit and visa exempt entry? (assuming one does a visa run when required)

  2. Is it practically possible? [/quote]

  3. NO[/quote]
    OK.
    Where is that written or which laws can this be deduced from? (Not an attempt to argue but an information question. :slight_smile: )

[quote=“CraigTPE”]Tapani,
You’d probably make a good lawyer…
[/quote]
…is right.

The way I’m reading the law, visa-exempt white-collar workers have 30 days to register with the MOFA in order to get the visa-exempt changed to visitor. You cannot work legally on a visitor visa. Visa-exempt is essentially a landing visa, with fewer options. That’s just the way I’m reading it. The bottom line of every legal equation in Taiwan is that you must be issued a work permit or as some here like to say, an employer applied for a work permit on your behalf. This is very standard stuff. RIght? Once you are granted the work permit, regardless of your visa status, you’re automatically sent down the ARC pipe. Otherwise, you’re off the books.

I think the OP is parsing the situations where foreigners come over here for a couple of months to work within the Taiwan branch of their international company?

That is likely the rule for most, if not all, countries in the world (with exceptions perhaps concerning such work as temporary articistic activities)

How/why? (Information question. :slight_smile: )

Message to the OP:

To make your argument better here, post either screen shots or links to what you are reading. It is ‘assumed’ you are required to have an ARC to work, but you think there is no ‘law’ stating such a requirement. Most of us are busy people, it’s Saturday, and no one is biting on your hypothetical little thread.

I’m interested in your argument, but you need to lead it a little better or else it’s all just status quo bullocks.

T

[quote=“Tapani”]This is so far just a thought that struck me:

  1. Is it legal to work with just a work permit and visa exempt entry? (assuming one does a visa run when required)
  2. Is it practically possible?

To me, it seems like the work permit allows for work in Taiwan, and the visa exempt allows one to stay here – so the combination seems legal. The law for illegal work only mentions work permit, and so far, immigrations have not cared about visa runs.

Regarding practicality… let’s disregard the obvious about leaving the country in and out. Apparently you can get an id number at immigrations without ARC, and use that to get a bank account. How about health insurance? Taxes? (seems to go by days on the island, not immigration status) How about a lease? (Since you have to show a lease to get an ARC, one should be able to rent without?).

There are some minor benefits of doing this (no need to give an adress and have police knocking on your door, no fingerprinting, and good chance not having to leave the country on the spot if fired, …), but overall it might not be worth the hassle. But that is not the issue now :-)[/quote]

Then you would be working on a tourist visa which would be illegal.

That is likely the rule for most, if not all, countries in the world (with exceptions perhaps concerning such work as temporary articistic activities)

How/why? (Information question. :slight_smile: )[/quote]

You would enter on a tourist visa which needs to be exchanged for a residency permit. One you get the residency permit you are told you have x days to get an ARC!

Working on a tourist visa with a work permit would be illegal since you cannot work for a Taiwanese company on a tourist visa.

OK. That would imply there is a rule to that effect.
Thanks for the info! :slight_smile:

What about students who stay in the country longer than 4 months: are they obliged to apply for an ARC or are they permitted to apply)?

[quote=“Tapani”]Thank you for the swift response and your warnings. This is not a plan of mine, just checking what options there are (and finding reasons to actually read the laws). I am quite sure it is not intended to be ok to work on visa-exempt entries, but I could not find any catch. I did dig around a bit before posting here. Heck, wo an ARC one might not even have to do the health-check…

What you say though, contradicts in several matters what I have found on the net (but that does not mean you are wrong! It’s Taiwan after all… information is often wrong, contradictory or missing).

[quote=“Icon”]The company has the work permit, not you. The work permit is not like a green card, it is an ethereal construct, only the ARC is real. It doe snot exist without the ARC.

If you are doing visa runs, you are not working legally, i.e. you have no work permit.
[/quote]
Is there some other branch of regulation I am not aware of? Does an ARC say something about this? How is the work permit connected to the ARC? :eh:

What you say contradicts the English translation of the law (Article 43, employment act). Working illegally is specified as working when your employer has not got a work permit for you. No mention of ARC or visa.

There are vistor visas for employment purposes, but I know what you mean. :slight_smile:

[quote=“Icon”]
Police stopped doing household visits like 10 years ago. And you have a higher shot of leaving the country anytime, without warning, if fired or found out, without time to pick your stuff and get your affairs in order.[/quote]
The law specifying how the visits shall be done was last renewed March 2010. The law says they are mandated to check on everyone, and apart from unnanounced visits, one check shall be done in your fourth month of stay. (But, it’s Taiwan, so it does not mean anyone will visit…)

If there is a catch with working on repeated visa exempt entries, I think it is more likely to be within immigration laws (specifically, Article 29 (or 22) in Immigration act). Or that there are more detailed regulations decided by a ‘competent authority’…

Sorry if my response seems cold or hostile, that is not intended. :sunglasses:[/quote]

Ehem, read the whole thing. A visitor’s visa is for visiting. Anything outside teh scope of that, and you are engaged in an illegal activity, ergo, if you are working while holding a visitor visa, you are working illegally.

What it refers to the work permit -which as said, means nothing as without the ARC it does not apply- is that you are tied down to that position. This means you cannot perform any other jobs aside from the one that has been assigned and given as a reason for your ARC -that allows you to stay here and work -by the company -when they requested the permit from CLA. That is why people are booted out of the country when, for instance, they are found teaching at a different branch than the one their work permit specifically says they work at, even if it is for the same company.

This is not a loophole, it is a mistranslation. And remember: not all relevant laws or details are specified on the websites of local government entities. Ask anyone who has gone through the loops -not loopholes- to get their Permanent Residence. Plus they would most probably be out of date, yes, even in Chinese.

Ther eis a certain amount of time you have to get your ARC once the work permit has been approved. Again, understand work permit as job description and reason for being here. Finally, when a student has been here 4 months, they must apply for ARC and NHI, other wise, fines pile up.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but if one is working short term in Taiwan for a company back home with a branch in Taiwan you would apply for a business visa and not a visitors visa.

That answers my question, too. Thanks…

OP here.

As achdizzy1099 says, I probably need to explain, and make my case of what was on my mind. Judging from the responses here, there seems to be quite a strong consencus that it is not possible to work without an ARC, but also a great confusion of terminology.

First there are legal definitions of visitor and resident. (Actually there are at least two different resident definitions, depending on the purpose, but we are only concerned about immigrations)

Definition ( Immigration Act, Article 3: 7-8 )
A visitor is someone staying for less than 6 months without leaving the country.
A resident is someone staying for 6 months or more (without leaving).

To reflect this, there are two different visa types: residency visas and visitor visas. For instance, there is a visitor visa that (presumably) allows you to work. For some nationalities, there is also an option to enter Taiwan visa exempt, that is without a visa of any kind.

There is a law that anyone granted a residence visa, must apply for an ARC within 15 days. The question I had was to what extent it was legal/practical to work by having an approved work permit, and keeping a visitor status by:
a) Visa exempt entries (have to leave the country every 90 days)
b) Visitors visas (have to renew every 60 days, leave the country every 180 days, and somehow arrange a new visa for employment purpose before/after reentering)

(b) is probably legal, but I am not sure how easy it is to get a new employment visa after 180 days (cannot find why not).
(a) is probably intended to be illegal, but cannot find out where that rule is

The closest I find is Article 29 of Immigration act

Maybe there is an implicit purpose of tourism (read “spending money”) with visa exempts, and hence working would be a violation of immigration rules (and punishable by deportation+ban). Other translations of this article says “purposes stated on visa”, which would make it less applicable.

Regarding the crime of working illegally, the main rule is that if your employer has your work permit, you are allowed to work there. Employment act does not mention any visas, residencies or the like.

Please be reminded that this is not anything I am suggesting for anyone. As someone said, there can be a huge difference between being right (techically) and getting right (possibly in court vs. authorities).

I tell you what… you go get a work permit on you so called visa exempt status or visitor visa, tell us where you are working and we’ll dob you into the cops.

After you get deported you can tell us about your experiences and how the law was interpreted because unless you are a complete idiot, you cannot legally engage in paid employment by a local employer without a work permit and an ARC which go hand in hand.

But hey maybe I am wrong as I have never had a work permit in the nearly 23 years I have lived here. But I have held an ARC stamped not allowed to work in Taiwan without authorization.

How about starting at the begining? Here is the question that started the thread:

To which Icon replied:

Do you have any reason to not address Icon’s answer? I am sure you will continue to run around in circles until you have proven Icon’s answer wrong - or have found out that it is correct, as the case may be. :smiley:

… is an autobiographical statement that does not address Icon’s point. :wink: :slight_smile:

[quote=“yuli”]How about starting at the begining? Here is the question that started the thread:

Do you have any reason to not address Icon’s answer? I am sure you will continue to run around in circles until you have proven Icon’s answer wrong - or have found out that it is correct, as the case may be. :smiley:
[/quote]
Thank you yuli.

Yes. I felt Icon’s answer was confused regarding the legal/formal part and based more on experience about the most common procedure. Picking it part sentence by sentence, arguing and pointing out flaws in terminology/concepts would have risked this thread to become a flame war. For the part you mentioned, my opinions are these:

This is how I have understood it as well, assuming “real” mean a physical thing in your hand.

These, I believe are not true. Your employer has to have a work permit for you before you can start applying for an ARC, hence the work permit exists before your ARC.
You can also work with a visitor visa for employment purposes (see below). I think Icon (and others) mixes up the terms “visitor visa” and “visitor visa for tourism purpose” / “visitor visa for visiting purposes”.

This one. However if this visa does not exist, or it bizarrely enough does not allow you to work in Taiwan, then my points about visitor visas are wrong.

One very interesting point is made by super_lucky

[quote=“super_lucky”]
The way I’m reading the law, visa-exempt white-collar workers have 30 days to register with the MOFA in order to get the visa-exempt changed to visitor.[/quote]
if this is true, that settles the visa exempt part. (This type of rule would make perfect sense, and wouldn’t surprise me at all if this would be the rule). Does anyone know of a reference to it? Is it 30 days from being granted a work permit?