Please continue the discussion here.
Rascal
Moderator IP Forum
"A pro-Iraq war US congressman who campaigned for French fries to be renamed “freedom fries” is now calling for US troops to return home from Iraq.
Republican Representative Walter Jones is to introduce legislation demanding a timetable for the withdrawal. . . .
“I voted for the resolution to commit the troops, and I feel that we’ve done about as much as we can do,” Mr Jones said on US network ABC.
He said his change of heart about the war came after he attended the funeral of a US sergeant killed in Nasiriya, Iraq, in April 2003. Mr Jones said he was moved by the soldier’s widow who read out her husband’s last letter."
[color=blue]Now for the hard part – actually extricating ourselves from the power vacuum we’ve created in Iraq.[/color]
With a majority of Americans now knowing the truth about this war, with increasing numbers of foreign fighters entering the combat, with no realistic end in sight, with smoking-gun memos showing that the Bush administration was determined to attack Iraq no matter what, perhaps it’s about time an independent investigator was appointed.
This just in – McCain has finally spoken out about the Bush administration’s continuing declarations that we’re “turning another corner”. Perhaps cognizant that we’ve at this point “turned so many corners” that we’re going in circles, McCain simply couldn’t keep silent.
[quote]Sen. John McCain disagreed Sunday with Vice President Dick Cheney’s assertion that the insurgency in Iraq is in its “last throes,” and called on the Bush administration to stop telling Americans victory is around the corner.
“What I think we should do,” McCain told NBC’s “Meet the Press,” “is wait until we achieve the successes, then celebrate them, rather than predict them. Because too often that prediction is not proven to be true.”[/quote]
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/19/mccain/index.html
Of course, the White House will probably seek some sort of retribution for this, but what can they really do that hasn’t already been done to the man? Rove spent so much time in the 2000 presidential primaries trying to smearboat McCain as being unhinged by his POW experience, a “stoolie” to his North Vietnamese captors, and the father of an illegitimate mixed race child (an apparent reference to his adopted daughter from Bangladesh).
What is the truth? This is nothing but a whole lotta chicken little, IMO.
Oh, yeah… time to quit. 
Uh… so what? How is this in any way a bad thing?
What for?
You think it is “chicken little” that a majority of Americans simply do not think that the war in Iraq has not made America safer? Seems like a simple opinion, no cause for hysterics (unless Bush and his cronies are starting to crap their pants).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/07/AR2005060700296.html
[quote]For the first time since the war in Iraq began, more than half of the American public believes the fight there has not made the United States safer, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.
Nearly three-quarters of Americans say the number of casualties in Iraq is unacceptable, while two-thirds say the U.S. military there is bogged down and nearly six in 10 say the war was not worth fighting – in all three cases matching or exceeding the highest levels of pessimism yet recorded. More than four in 10 believe the U.S. presence in Iraq is becoming analogous to the experience in Vietnam.
Perhaps most ominous for President Bush, 52 percent said war in Iraq has not contributed to the long-term security of the United States, while 47 percent said it has. It was the first time a majority of Americans disagreed with the central notion Bush has offered to build support for war: that the fight there will make Americans safer from terrorists at home. In late 2003, 62 percent thought the Iraq war aided U.S. security, and three months ago 52 percent thought so.[/quote]
All things considered, this sort of realization is probably not an easy thing for most Americans to come around to – most probably put a lot of trust into the President at the start of the war, and I don’t believe that this sort of turnaround came without considerable soul-searching.
That’s a load of nonsense in that question, and you know it. It means absolutely nothing.
So, a majority of Americans “think” the war in Iraq has not made America safer… What the heck does that signify? NOTHING.
And, are these the same majority who you thought were so stupid and ill-informed when they re-elected Bush and when they “believed” that saddam was partly responsible for the 911 attacks?
Really… this is just tiresome nonsense. I’m amazed that you post it as though you think it has some significance.
Seems like a stupid question, IMO. Andl let’s look at the idiotic statement-question:
WILL… WILL… That means in the FUTURE. Bush stated many times that this will take a long LONG time and that it will be difficult and that at times it will seem as though no progress is being made, etc…
Gee, what do you suggest? Should we leave Iraq now and perhaps give up all that has been gained and just go back to what it was we were doing for the previous 50 years? Gee, as I recall, that wasn’t terribly successful, was it?
Realization? It is not a realization. Nothing has been realized by the people who answered the questions of the poll. The poll measures OPINION… not REALIZATION. Damn, I would have thought that you would have understood the way polls work and what they mean. :s
Riiight! That’s funny. Really funny! :bravo:
Why on earth do you think that the safety of the American people “means absolutely nothing”? Do you think the lives of U.S. troops thrown into causes not intended for the defense of the American people? In case you haven’t heard lately, the troops are not little green plastic toys.
What does it signify? People are waking up and smelling the unmitigated BS that went into this Iraq war. Perhaps they’re smelling the fact that Bush and his cabinet members lied to them about the war. There’s an old expression that the GOP leadership ought to acquaint themselves with: “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” Let’s just see how Bush is doing with that age-old expression, shall we:
So sorry to hear you have so little respect for the American people. You want to disrespect them for listening to and believing the Bush lies the first time around, and you want to disrespect them for finally getting it straight. Which is it?
I’m amazed that you spend this much time ranting against the American people.
[quote=“Tigerman”]Seems like a stupid question, IMO. Andl let’s look at the idiotic statement-question:
WILL… WILL… That means in the FUTURE. Bush stated many times that this will take a long LONG time and that it will be difficult and that at times it will seem as though no progress is being made, etc… [/quote]
OK, since you obviously did not read carefully, let me point out that when a majority of Americans disagree that the Iraq war will make Americans safer from terrorists, that’s another way of saying most Americans don’t think the war is making us safer from terrorists. They’re not commenting on “eventually” or “long time” or “in the future”. You’re simply adding words. :loco:
Sure looks like the Iraq war wasn’t too successful, either. Now you’ve got McCain calling on the Bushies not to keep trumpeting these false hopes about the war. By the way, McCain is a Republican, in case you didn’t notice or in case you bought into Rove’s nonsense that he’s a crazy traitor with mixed-race illegitimate kids.
When there’s a big change in national opinion, I think it’s fair to say that those people are having a realization, i.e., they have realized that the Bush administration justifications for the war are incorrect.
Riiight! That’s funny. Really funny! :bravo:[/quote]
What on earth is it that you have against the American people? It appears that you give them no credit whatsoever. One of these days, you ought to spend a bit of time there – if you haven’t previously visited the U.S. before it would be a good chance to learn about the place. Just curious, but what country do you hail from?
Don’t be ridiculous. I said no such thing.
I said that the fact that some poll shows that a majority of Americans who answered that poll “think” that the US is note safer due to the war in Iraq means absolutely nothing.
What are you talking about? I think you are missing some words in your above question…
Yeah, riiiiight! You’re funny this mornning!
:bravo: Riiight! How so?
I’m not the one who disrespected the voters after the election. Doh.
No, I’m just expressing my amazement that you actually think the poll signifies anything at all.
SO WHAT?
Perhaps you should take McCain’s advice and stop predicting failure until the effort is completed or terminated.
You know, mofangongren, you have been predicting failure for over a year now… close to two years… I guess you don’t see the hypocrisy in your blathering now… do you?
Nope, sorry… you’re wrong again. A change of “opinion” is simply that. It involves no “realization” at all. When a “realization” occurs, there are no more “opinions”.
Riiight! That’s funny. Really funny! :bravo:[/quote]
I’m just asking you why you now want to give the American people so much credit when you previously believed that they (the majority) were clueless after re-electing Bush.
I’m not making any statement about the American people… I’m wondering about your sudden faith in them.
Have I ever dissed the American people? Nope. Frankly, I think the Bush administration has disrespected our citizens and troops.
Regarding the failure/success of the war, my sense is that the inability to find WMDs already made the war a failure. Dumping half our combat troops into the middle of nowhere makes the war a failure. Diverting massive resources from the real fight against terror groups and getting quagmired in a tin-pot dictator’s mess of a country made the war a failure.
Are there any resounding successes? McCain obviously urges caution on this. Wise man in my opinion, considering the stated objectives of the war and the clear failures. Of course, I realize some people have bought into Rove’s efforts to characterize McCain as a loony traitor with mixed-race children, but you didn’t fall for that sort of baloney did you?
Seems like you’re being a bit touchy now that Americans are smelling the BS that was peddled to them. Perhaps if you would be willing to look carefully at the malarkey being spread about by the Bushies prior to the war, you can see what a big ol’ lemon our Used-Car-Salesman-in-Chief has been selling. 
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but at least we now KNOW that Saddam doesn’t have any nor is he planning to develop any.
I take it that you view the Middle East as “nowhere.” I am sure that many in the Middle East would beg to differ with you.
Care to prove that. My understanding is that the fight against al Qaeda has not in any way been impacted by the war in Iraq. Where would you send those soldiers instead?
It was a “quagmire” from the first day of the invasion according to most of your right-thinking brigade. Since then, the power, water, oil have and are being restored. The interim constitution was approved, power transferred, elections held, constitutional council agreed upon. I predict success if pass “disasters” are any indication of where this is headed.
You never commented on the majority of American voters who re-elected Bush, eh? Never?
Now we’re getting somewhere. Let’s use your statement above to learn something. Alrighty, then. You recognize your statement above as a statement of OPINION. Good. That’s all I regard it as also. Now, here’s a hint about thoat poll you cite as some sort of conclusive evidence of whatever… polls such as the one you cited are called OPINION POLLS. The measure nothing but opinion, and they are not necessarily good at doing even that.
Thus, the results of such polls mean exactly what? You guessed it: Squat!
Seeing as Bush wanted this to be a pre-emptive war, I don’t see how the failure to find WMD was a failure. Heck, some might even call it a success, of sorts.
What is it with Iraq and the middle east that you keep calling it “nowhere”. Here’s another clue… the region is where all of the terrorists come from.
Now, before you get a hard on and all excited and want to reply that the terrorists didn’t come from Iraq… note that I said the terrorists come from the region… and Iraq just happens to be in the heart of that region… and reform of that region cannot succeed unless reform succeeds in Iraq.
The real fight? I don’t think the real fight can be won, absent killing everyone from that region or reforming that region. I’d say reform is the better option, wouldn’t you?
I’d say we’re in for a long struggle… but, if successful, it will have been well worth the trouble. Chicken little proclamations notwithstanding, of course.
You apparently do not know the stated objectives…
And, I’ll say it again… its funny, in a sort of way, to watch you opine that McCain is a wise man while doing the opposite of what he says.
No, I didn’t. And why are you even asking that question? I have made no remarks whatsoever about McCain. I have agreed that his advice is sound. That’s why I am laughing as you continue to ignore McCain’s advice.
I’m not being touchy at all… and I don’t smell any bs… well, OK, when reading your posts I do 
…
Oh, I did look closely… and I’ve read all about all of the reasons provided for ousting Saddam… and I support all of those reasons. Perhaps it is you who should take the blinders off and look at all of the reasons given.
Oh, but, doing so would mean that you would need to confront the facts and reconcile your opinion with fact.
Well, you’d best keep those blinders on. The glare from the facts might harm your eyes… 
Too bad for your hasty attempts to disregard the views of the American people, the Republicans are starting to tear at the Bushian war promises as well. Let’s see what Sen. Hagel has to say. (In case you forgot, Hagel is a Republican.)
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050619/pl_afp/usiraqpoliticshagel_050619194125
[quote]Republican Senator Chuck Hagel slammed the George W. Bush administration’s Iraq policy as “disconnected from reality” in some of the harshest comments to date about the war from a member of the president’s own party.
“The White House is completely disconnected from reality,” said Hagel. “It’s like they’re just making it up as they go along. The reality is that we’re losing in Iraq,” said Hagel, who added that increasingly, fellow Republicans are coming to share his view.[/quote]
The White House probably won’t let Hagel get away with this sort of disloyalty.
[quote=“fred smith”]
It was a “quagmire” from the first day of the invasion according to most of your right-thinking brigade. Since then, the power, water, oil have and are being restored. The interim constitution was approved, power transferred, elections held, constitutional council agreed upon. I predict success if pass “disasters” are any indication of where this is headed.[/quote]
All of these things have happened and are all good things. However the terrorists have continued apace as well. Many of these events were meant to have a significant effect on the terrorists. The ‘back of the insurgency’ was meant to have been broken. They have, apparently, been desperate for the past two years at least. Yet still they seem to be able to carry on at a pretty ferocious lick. Surely even you must be getting a bit tired of the platitudinous crap that the administration seems to feel the need to spout?
I cannot speak for FS, but I agree with McCain… that Bush should stop predicting success and only announce successes.
This, admittedly, is difficult for Bush… he basically has to predict success… otherwise, why is he pushing a policy he doesn’t think will succeed? But, he could do well by speaking in a more reserved manner re successes predicted.
Likewise, I wish, really, that those who seem to be hoping for failure would stop predicting failure.
TM -
I personally think Pres. Bush and his team are doing a lousy job at telling the USA and the World hw many positive things are happening in Iraq. Daily I get emails from sources telling me and others of the actual good things happening there - And NONE of these show up for the public to know about.
This is a major failure on the Admins side.
It leaves it open for the naysayers and doomsday squad to peddle their praddle and have it believed.
Get the message out - Progress is being made in Iraq.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]TM -
I personally think Pres. Bush and his team are doing a lousy job at telling the USA and the World hw many positive things are happening in Iraq. Daily I get emails from sources telling me and others of the actual good things happening there - And NONE of these show up for the public to know about.
This is a major failure on the Admins side.
It leaves it open for the naysayers and doomsday squad to peddle their praddle and have it believed.
Get the message out - Progress is being made in Iraq.[/quote]
TC,
Just to clarify, I agree with your remarks above. What I meant by being more reserved is simply that Bush should be more reserved about predictions for future success… but, I do think he should announce completed successes. Absolutely.
But, while announcing successes, he should continue to remind the American public that the war will last a long time and it will at times be difficult (because some folks are either short of memory or didn’t get the original message).
TM-
Completely agree. Crystal balls don’t win a war. Brass ones do.
At least this part of your words the majority of Americans can agree with! But with Republicans like Chuck Hagel talking about losing the war, seems like there’s a real problem. Perhaps the White House will arrange to have Sen. Hagel ejected from public, taxpayer-funded events just like they do to “common” American citizens.
Despite the clear priority that the American people have on fighting against islamic terrorists, Bush has chosen to fight four very separate wars:
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a military invasion against the secular, broken-down, tin-pot dictatorship of the already-marginalized Saddam Hussein;
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a “culture” war against anyone the religious right doesn’t like;
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a civil-rights war against American citizens; and
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an economic war against the middle class.
[color=blue]US ‘lied’ in denying the use of napalm in Iraq, UK admits
The British government has been forced to admit that it was lied to by American officials over the use of “internationally reviled” napalm-type firebombs in Iraq.
“The US confirmed to my officials that they had not used MK77s in Iraq at any time and this was the basis of my response to you,” Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram said.
“I regret to say that I have since discovered that this is not the case and must now correct the position,” he said in a private letter to Labour MP Harry Cohen, which was revealed by the Independent newspaper Friday.
Despite persistent rumours of injuries among Iraqis consistent with the use of incendiary weapons such as napalm, Ingram assured MPs in January that US forces had not used a new generation of incendiary weapons, codenamed MK77, in Iraq.
But in his letter, he admitted that 30 MK77 firebombs were used by the American 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in the invasion of Iraq between 31 March and 2 April 2003.
To avoid accusation that the US had breached the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, the British minister insisted that they were used against military targets “away from civilian targets.”
Confirmation of the US had lied to the UK has led MPs to further question the value of assurances by the US, including its claim that the firebombs were not used in last year’s major assault on Fallujah.
The Iraq Analysis Group (IAG), which campaigned against the war, has also accused the US and UK of a cover-up, saying that American authorities only admitted the use of the weapons after the evidence from reporters had become irrefutable.
“The US has used internationally reviled weapons that the UK refuses to use, and has then apparently lied to UK officials, showing how little weight the UK carries in influencing American policy,” IAG spokesman Mike Lewis said.
He also suggested Tony Blair’s government had deliberately held up the information that the US had lied until after last months elections in the UK, saying the evidence Ingram was given was “publicly available months ago.”
“He has waited until after the election to admit to it - a clear sign of the Government’s embarrassment that they are doing nothing to restrain their own coalition partner in Iraq,” Lewis said.
The Liberal Democrats, which opposed the Iraq war, also said that it showed the US had “not been completely open with the UK” despite London’s special relationship with Washington.
MK77 bombs are an evolution of the napalm, a kerosene-based jet fuel that sticks to structures and to its victims, that was used so horrendously by the US Vietnam and Korea."[/color]