It’s not just ethics. It’s also about institutions. Chinese business people cut corners because they can. China doesn’t have real product liability so there’s every incentive in the world to put dangerous products on the market because the risk (to the seller) is very, very low. If western business people could get away with the same thing, you can bet there would be many who would do it too.
I thought it was just me. I had to stop the video because I was about to beat my own brains out listening to him.
Chinese culture definitely places a lot of emphasis on money - but we all do, don’t we? I think the difference is that the Chinese focus much more on the idea of money as a store-of-wealth rather than (as in the west) merely a mechanism for trading. Modern fiat currencies have no more inherent value than ghost money, so we like to keep it on the move. The Chinese view is that cash (or gold) is actually worth something, even in the absence of a money-based economy. They also seem to think it can be gained by ‘good fortune’ (rather than trading labour or goods) and can be materialised out of thin air - even though the Spaniards comprehensively destroyed that idea when they brought back boatloads of stolen gold from the New World.
Institutions (or lack of them) do have a lot to do with bad behaviour, of course, but I think there’s more to it than that. Remember the ‘fake eggs’ scam? Some fuckwit had actually gone to the trouble of manufacturing eggs from chemicals and whatnot. There is no possible way on earth that it could have been cheaper/easier than to rent a piece of land, put chickens on it, and feed them with scraps. I suspect people do things like that because of the perverse economic incentives that were put in place by the cultural revolution: it’s hard to imagine how comprehensively China was screwed over by the Hairy Chairman, to the point where the only possible way of making a little extra money was to scam people. Legitimate business was, effectively, illegal. I’m sure people simply lost the ability to think in terms of fair and mutually-beneficial trades.
No, misterbra, we don’t find it funny … that does seem to be an exclusively Chinese characteristic. We think it’s sad that a culture that prides itself on cultural sophistication has still not understood that car accidents are caused by bad driving, not by bad luck.
It’s not just a ‘Chinese’ thing either. There are different cultures in Chinese culture. For instance Fujian/Minnan people are well known as traders and fishermen, trade and money making is part of their blood. Other types of Chinese less so, I have visited Beijing and Northern China and found their working attitude quite different than Taiwanese. My in-laws are Hakka and while they like money like the everybody their culture is more farming based, they don’t have a big drive to go for the big money, most are happy to stay where they grow up and work low paying jobs, just get by.
Then you’ve got Chinese in Singapore, yes they definitely like money but they are certainly less likely to cut corners for quick money.
So yes Chinese culture has a large part about money but there it is also very superstitious and places a big emphasis on ancestor worship and many other rather odd things, money is only one aspect.
whomever the narrator is in that video should maybe try something else instead. This person is not very talented and the video is awkward, witless, unfunny and uncomfortable to watch.
Come to think about it, It’s about as interesting as this thread.
The Chinese love money. No one denies it.
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There’s also family. And to a much lesser extent, certain philosophical and aesthetic concepts, experiences and traditions.
But family again is also about money. Who is the best in the family? The son… who is brought up to better make lots of money, unless he wants to end up being a horrible failure. Philosophical and aesthetic concepts and traditions? If you know a little about those concepts and traditions you start noticing that the majority doenst know shit about this. They dont know anything real except that their 10000 year old culture is awesome on general principle. Like today I went to the palace museum: Seeing and understanding what they see is not important. “I’ve been there” is. Walk in the room and walk outside again and tackle some stupid westerners who actually look at things and who are in the way of the group rushing through. They “know” everything already… and better than anyone from outside. All that is genetic. They will always know better than anyone else even if they are talking out of their arse big time.
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Yes.
Replace Chinese with Jew and see how far you can get away with this conversation in normal society.
Almost agreed with you, but then there are weddings, births, deaths and religious salvation. All of these things are overtly monetary. they are not in the Jewish tradition.
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Almost agreed with you, but then there are weddings, births, deaths and religious salvation. All of these things are overtly monetary. they are not in the Jewish tradition.[/quote]
What exactly about the way Chinese make weddings and births and deaths IN PART a tranfer of money is different from anywhere else in the world? Do you not give gifts in your culture? How is this somehow better or different, and somehow not worthy of contempt? I mean what abou setting up a young newly married couple with a houseful of material goods is so laudible?
As for religious salvation this applies more to folk religion than real Daoism or Buddhism and again isn’t much different from most of the world either. This isn’t excusing it but the focus of this thread is not simply to describe Chinese culture but to condemn it. As far as I am concerned if a part of a certain culture is seen normally around the world then it is nothing but predujice to focus on it in one place.
I also find it laughable that a country with one of the highest per capita Buddhist monastic population in Asia is constantly portrayed as completely superficial and focused on money. Yes, lots of people are focused on money, and for the obvious reason that this is normal human behavior, and exaggerated by theh absence of social safety measures here. But lots of people aren’t and the culture is wide enough to accommodate them as well.
So the answer to the OP’s question is no.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]Yes, lots of people are focused on money, and for the obvious reason that this is normal human behavior, and exaggerated by theh absence of social safety measures here. But lots of people aren’t and the culture is wide enough to accommodate them as well.
So the answer to the OP’s question is no.[/quote]
Very well said, MM, as usual. We would do well, in the West, to adopt Chinese attitudes towards frugality and savings. Several Western nations have gone through welfare and entitlement reform in the past 15 years, and in the US at least much deeper cuts appear inevitable. Our social safety nets are likely to have much wider gaps in the future, and I hope that will inspire more rational behavior towards money.
“One poor heathen, not far from the college, found a shell, sat astride it, and began to work with chisel and hammer to extract the powder. It burst, carrying off both his limbs into the branches of a tree under which he was sitting. He lived for a few minutes, the explosion having so twisted his flesh and arteries that the escape of blood was somewhat interfered with. But for that last moment, with half his body blown away, his mind was still on the treasures of earth. Seeing the contents of his pocket on the ground, he said with his last breath, ‘Pick up that dollar.’ Poor, dark, hopeless heathenism!” - George Leslie Mackay
[quote=“crystaleye”]You tell me, my friends… isn’t the Chinese Culture all about Money?[/quote]It’s about food too. :lick:
But family again is also about money. Who is the best in the family? The son… who is brought up to better make lots of money, unless he wants to end up being a horrible failure. Philosophical and aesthetic concepts and traditions? If you know a little about those concepts and traditions you start noticing that the majority doenst know shit about this. They dont know anything real except that their 10000 year old culture is awesome on general principle. Like today I went to the palace museum: Seeing and understanding what they see is not important. “I’ve been there” is. Walk in the room and walk outside again and tackle some stupid westerners who actually look at things and who are in the way of the group rushing through. They “know” everything already… and better than anyone from outside. All that is genetic. They will always know better than anyone else even if they are talking out of their arse big time.[/quote]
Family is not “about” money: There is also continuation of the line, and happiness within the only group of people you can really trust. Money is very important within the family, but it’s “money for family” not “family for money”, IMO. As to those aesthetic traditions, that is more high culture, yes, than common culture. But it does have its place to a smaller extent, and is often largely outside the money system.
ha, ha, ha
Just a minute. I’ll ask my houseboys about this.
"Are you 'orrible little money-grubbing @#%$^&?
Well, they both answered with an emphatic “Yes, Honourable Heaven Born Lord.”
To anyone who isn’t some guilt-ridden bedwetting liberal nancyboy teetotaler, it’s obvious that the Chinese are more money-obsessed than other people are.
When you get to the root of many things here, it boils down to pieces of silver. For example, their feng shui, rather than being about harmony with nature and the like, is actually about grasping a bit more cash. The many aquariums found everywhere rather than reflecting a deep love of fish is all about primitive money-grubbing superstition. “Poor, dark, hopeless heathenism!” indeed."
The love of money is obviously a universal human trait but I really do believe there are shades of degree and it’s an interesting question, something someone should research. But I don’t suppose submitting a thesis proposal with a subject title like “Greedy Chinese; the Triangulation of Money, Luck, and Face” would make you flavour of the month on campus.
Muzha Man, you mentioned Buddhism. That reminds me. Why is the Chinese Buddha such a fattie, a really fat gluttonous tub of lard?
Anyway, best be going. I’ve had a lean couple of months workwise, so I’m off to the cemetery to move grandpa’s bones and get me some luck.
It’s interesting how Shakyamuni Buddha is portrayed in most cultures (including Chinese) as a monk dressed in simple monastic robes, with the only evidence of him ever having been a prince being his pierced earlobes elongated by years of wearing heavy gold earrings. But in Thailand, he is often shown wearing kingly regalia.
I’m personally more impressed by the obsession I noticed towards savings than towards money itself.
Chinese people are obsessed with living frugally to save as much money as possible, and have absolutely no ability in spending efficiently.
North Americans and Europeans have no ability to save money, yet are very good at efficiently spending money.
Case in point: I’m working on a committee right now for a conference in Taipei coming up this month. The committee has three universities participating in the event, yet the committee feels it’s okay to spend money that we don’t have on things that one of those three universities have already. For example, they want to rent computers from the hotel to allow internet access. One of the three universities can easily supply 5 computers for a few days. They want to pay money to the hotel, $800 per guest per day, to allow internet usage for everyone, even though 3 of the sponsors are telecom firms here. They are paying a PR firm for simple things like flyer and sign design, which 2 of the universities have graphic design programs. I have to be the asshole that makes these obvious points known to everyone.
Every culture in the world is concerned with money, but Chinese people have an obsession over it, and this odd disconnect which I don’t really get. Chinese people’s money obsession combined with their need to always maintain face is such a weird phenomenon that, even after years of being here, I still can’t wrap my head around.
My opinion is that Chinese people are frugal (in the wrong ways) so they can save as much as possible, then when put in a situation where they need to save face, they will have enough money to save face. I don’t think westerners should be more like Chinese people, I think Chinese people need to learn how to be smarter with the money they spend, and westerners need to be smarter with the money they save.
On a side note: This ‘face’ shit drives me insane.
Why? Face operates in every society. We just don’t necessarily have a name for it. People in US criminal culture are always going on forever about who gives ‘respect’ and who doesn’t. They kill people over the slightest infractions. It’s exactly the same thing.
I just got back from India. Middle class Indians are also obsessed with money. It’s a function of living in a developing society.
[quote=“Feiren”][quote=“mike029”]
Why? Face operates in every society. We just don’t necessarily have a name for it. People in US criminal culture are always going on forever about who gives ‘respect’ and who doesn’t. They kill people over the slightest infractions. It’s exactly the same thing.
[/quote][/quote]
No its not the same and “face” is by far the most moronic cultural concept I have ever encountered.