How do you guys justify your thievery? To yourself, god (if you swing that way), or society.
Or do you jut not think about it. Just curious.
I’ve downloaded plenty of albums that i haven’t listened too. Is it theft if i don’t listen to them.
Well, thief doesn’t sound appropriate as even after taking the goods the original one still remain. It is not like taking something then there is no more for others…it is more like duplicating, sharing.
Difficult to call it thief.
But I agree that the authors might not get the full credit that they deserve…but go to their concert instead ! It will even more appreciate !
The big loosers in that are the majors…but well…difficult to complain old business people not willing to change and trying to impose in a big way their view against Authors, publics and culture for their own wealthness instead of seizing the opportunity (They don’t really high technology, okay I know)
Even the artists start to be against all these stupidities.
See the recent buzz with the Majors not giving a damn $ to the artists based on their online sales. (They just pay once whatever the success of the album, title later on)\
Ahhh…
Agree with dudumomo, I always ask myself, “What is the harm?” You really cannot equate it with stealing or theft; the moral and legal implications are very different.
I am actually a regular consumer of media. I buy movie tickets, books, video games, etc. There are also free games on the web, TV and movies on cable, music on radio stations, etc. If I do something for free, it doesn’t mean somebody has lost money on it. It just means I would have done something else instead.
[quote=“dudumomo”]Well, thief doesn’t sound appropriate as even after taking the goods the original one still remain. It is not like taking something then there is no more for others…it is more like duplicating, sharing.
Difficult to call it thief.
.[/quote]
Very easy to call it thievery.
I use my money to make a movie. I plan to make my money back and make a profit by selling DVDs for $7.99 each.
A thief steals my movie and makes a copy. He puts it on the internet. You download it and do not buy my film. You watch my film and are entertained by it
I do not receive my $7.99.
You stole from me. Simple.
It doesn’t matter what form the movie comes in - .avi, quicktime, VCD.
You watched the movie (and were hopefully entertained) and didn’t pay for it. I did not receive anything for my investment.
No one is stopping you from stealing dudumomo. But at least be an honest man and admit that you are a.) stealing and b.) a thief
what line of business are you in dudumomo?
I used to be dead honest. But let’s say that a person buys that movie you invested in. It is a unique and entertaining movie. The person throws it into his suitcase and returns home to Taiwan.
He pops it into his DVD and it does not play. He copies it and removes the region code. He is stealing content that he paid for.
Doctor Who is freely available on TV in the US and America. But cannot be watched here. It’s on “free TV” You can’t even buy the DVD’s that will play here.
For that matter, Dr Who was on at midnight for less than a few weeks here in Taiwan. No one will buy it. It can’t be sold here! It is mortally wrong to block my access to a TV show. I would be willing to pay a small fee. So I watch it on a you tube like site in China. Am I a criminal?
I actually don’t mind paying a monthly fee for music. I even though I found a way to port those WMA’s to the car with out having to pay the fee, I still pay my montly fee. Even though I may not download at all for that month.
[quote=“Askr”]How do you guys justify your thievery? To yourself, god (if you swing that way), or society.
Or do you jut not think about it. Just curious.
I’ve downloaded plenty of albums that i haven’t listened too. Is it theft if I don’t listen to them.[/quote]
I am a thief. I used to subscribe to Netflix, Sirius and Pandora for my media fix and use the free version of Hulu. As far as I can tell, none are available in Taiwan. I am willing to pay for a service that is not offered.
I guess I have no trouble sleeping at night because I think that whole media usage rights and licensing is a bunch of crap and I see the biggest impact on corporate fat cats and shareholders of the big media firms. Is that really the case? I dunno. I’ll pay 15 bucks a month for music and 15 bucks a month for movies. That’s what it’s worth to me. That product is available in the States and I used to buy it. Offer it in Taiwan and I’ll pay. Give me no other alternative and I’ll read books instead and won’t pay for your concerts or movie tickets. I don’t ever download movies that are currently running. I do legally pay for all book content via Kindle.
Let’s not confuse ethics with law. (although in most cases, hopefully they arrive at the same conclusions)
The point is that downloading a movie is theft, both ethically and legally, unless you own the original copy (then, it may just be illegal in some countries). Copying a movie that you purchased to play on your computer may be illegal in some countries (but not the US), but it is not unethical.
It looks like we are talking ethics here, which IMHO is more important than law.
Not a good idea to put the human race on the honor system.
It’s going to be a bit long xD
Askr, I’m not agree with you, you are comparing in your example the guy that had stole the DVD from you and the watcher of the content (online), which is not the same.
I don’t need to push too far away your example to show it is not even the current reality.
Retail sector:
Let’s say I am an artist, I’m doing pop music, and I plan to make my money back and make profit by actually letting the Majors (Universal and co) selling my CD for $10 each.
-
When people buy the CD, I actually receive something like $0.5 per CD. (Yep the 95% are usually split between the production, distribution and intermediates, who are generally the same…, the Majors).
Well, okay, I’am desperately in need of money so I accept the contract (Difficult to ask something else actually…the artist vs the major is too biased), but they insure me to promote my album if they like it (I hope they do !!! They should know better than anyone else what the public want to listen ! euh well, or maybe the public better knows, whatever, I’m fine with it!) and they insure to protect my rights (I’ve heard about some problems that the majors were not respecting that, but well, it doesn’t occur often I guess, and not for people coming from taiwan I hope ! ouups I hear something about the “Difang” controversy and Enigma, damn even with aborigen? Anyway) -
But I saw someone stealing my CD in Carrefour !! I’m not going to be paid for this one and it was the last one, damn it.
===> This is indeed stealing in my POV
Internet:
But I’m a young guy and I know internet can be a great business for me !
- Universal offers me a contract for being online. Approx $5 000 for my CD ! Wow ! That’s great !! I do want !
But 6 months later, I’ve just realised 2 things…first, the price of my album is $9.99…almost the same price than a CD…I didn’t know it was expensive to go online (They might have a lot of cost…but I’ve always heard that internet was a cheap technology when dividing by the number of users…well I don’t quite understand that, but I’m sure Universal knows that they do)
Second, wooow, my CD have been sold 20 000 times !! A nice success for me already (Okay, far away from the top 50 I know, but I’m not as good as them…Am I? My productor don’t think so)
But hold a second…20 000 times $10 (Price of my album) = $200 000 !! Yeah I’m finally getting well paid for my album !! What !! not really, I’ve just receive 5000 bucks, ie 2.5% only !! Even less than selling CD. And if my album get sold at 100 000CD, I won’t earn much ??? Hell no !! - But gosh, I know someone that have stolen my music online !! I’m not even getting paid for this album !!
yeah but hold one…by taking my album, the guy didn’t take it…but duplicate it…now there is twice the same album on internet ?! The one sold by Universal still remain and is in theory illimited quantity… So they are stoling something but the things doesn’t disappear… well, it still remain for others…(so more people know my music ??)
== End of my quite silly monologue.==
Just to point out that artists usually complain more on their labels/record companies, but cannot do much as they can even loose everything!
Also, the production of cultural goods (Musics, movies, etc…) was based on the rarity principle. Now, with the numerical revolution and the ease for duplicating and sharing, we assist to a new face of the culture. No one can say that it is a disaster for the culture, right?. The creativity has never been so rich and easily “broadcastable” than now.
The words thief, pirate, etc… used before for inept scalper or people reselling what they had stolen, is now used by the Majors against their own public…
It was actually similar (a long time ago) with the invention of the printing-press. The monks that were coping books tried to block this as they were loosing their financial interest…
Hopefully the other side were stronger and won for finally the well of the world, by sharing the culture !
But no need to go so far away, it was similar during the launch of the Radio… What ??? Free to listen for the public ?? It will kill the artists !!! Poor artists think to them please !!
And actually the radio is now the major tool used to promote an artist…
Now, it is again the same…a new revolution, and some are trying to block that for their own interest…
Thinking a new way on how to support and finance the creation of the culture will be more helpful than what the Majors are actually doing (To keep their good wealthness, I pretty got it)
Especially that their are alternatives…
Several studies even show that the download was good for the artists. Easy to get: they don’t earn a lot by selling their discs, but they do during their concert. By allowing the user to download freely their albums, it makes the group more well-known, leading to better popularity. That’s why several well known artists already offer for free their album in direct download.
Also, it has even show that some artists were earning more than not selling their album, thanks to the donations they received for their great musics.
And, I’m always surprise about the inconsistency of the business… It is forbidden to copy a disk or share music, but we got more and more devices able to read MP3, Divx, etc…There is clearly an inconsistency here.
Finally, to answer to your previous question, I’m working in Corporate Finance, but are really concern about Internet and our liberty.
And yes, I’ve downloaded musics before (ie, stealing) and thus, it seems that I am a thief…
Fortunatly, Jamedo.com and others (Dogmazic) showed me the way of freedom (Music under Creative Common and I do some regular donation to the artists to thanks them when I like their work)
PS: As Taiwan_Student mentionned, I don’t even talk about this kind of problem, to zone a CD pfff or not being able to buy a CD from a different country because there is no market in your own country, need to wait months to get a release (If somethine there is…) of a TV Shows and popular movie, etc…
We definitly need to make change happen…
[quote=“Askr”]How do you guys justify your thievery? To yourself, god (if you swing that way), or society.
Or do you jut not think about it. Just curious.
I’ve downloaded plenty of albums that i haven’t listened too. Is it theft if I don’t listen to them.[/quote]
I’m curious, Askr. Since you started this subject, do you consider yourself a thief?
technically, it depends on the laws of the country you download in. if you DL in the US, then YES you are a dirty fuckin thief, but if you download in other countries, by law you are doing nothing wrong.
Until someone offers me the opportunity to watch TV when I want (global TV type netflix) I will continue to download.
[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”]Let’s not confuse ethics with law. (although in most cases, hopefully they arrive at the same conclusions)…
. Copying a movie that you purchased to play on your computer may be illegal in some countries (but not the US), but it is not unethical.
It looks like we are talking ethics here, which IMHO is more important than law.[/quote]
You are partly wrong… and right of course…
You are allowed to backup any media you legally own under fair use. You are free to back up your dvd if you can legally decrypt it.
But you are not leagally allowed to decrypt it so you are out of luck.
As a previous poster mentioned… KKBOX met my requirements. I pay even when I have no time to use it. The price is fair. Some months I’m a heavy user. Some months I’m not. Even though re-recording the songs to an other format so it can be used in the car is not quite legal, they know it is done and it doesn’t effect revenue. People still pay. If they switched to open mp3, I bet they will still get their fees. I mean, fair price, large catalog on demand, Karoke lyrics for only 149 a month. I’ll pay a fair price for access to BBC TV or American Hulu. I don’t see why they can’t open this up to world wide consumers. I really don’t see the local market wanting the things that i like to watch. So why protect the local distributors.
If I could get what I want to watch here I’d pay for it. I spent YEARS and YEARS paying for the shite spewed out by local TV channels, so SOMEBODY owes me BIG TIME! So I download my TV shows with no compunction at all. And movies, too. OOH! GOSH! I’m STEALING from Sony! Oo-er! Like I give a shit! 
[quote=“irishstu”]
I’m curious, Askr. Since you started this subject, do you consider yourself a thief?[/quote]
[quote=“Askr”]
I’ve downloaded plenty of albums that i haven’t listened too. [/quote]
Yes, i do count myself as a thief. Technology has certainly made it easier to become one too.
I remember the good old days when you copied friends cassettes. You couldn’t copy it too many times as the quality would degrade. If it was a real must have you could go buy it. Now days there is no loss in quality.
I do agree with a lot of posters here. People don’t mind paying for stuff. They have money and it doesn’t bother them. But they want the product instantly and they don’t want to leave the house. They don’t want some poxy DRM lock on their shit either. So the record labels need to wake up.
People said iTunes would fail. Apple beat everyone to those consumer $$.
Piracy does help in some cases. The new ‘Go the f**k to sleep’ ( a 32 page kids book) was heavily pirated via email when it was sent to reviewers as a PDF.
It went to number #1 on Amazon before it was even published. People obviously read the pdf and still wanted a hard copy.
baycitizen.org/books/story/g … viral-pdf/
i don’t know what my point is.
I’d be happy to pay x amount a month for new release or old classic movies. but i wouldn’t want to watch them online. I’d want to able to download an .avi or quicktime that didn’t expire
Yeah, for the media companies they all shout “thief” as loud as they can, yet ignore people have paid for the same album on vinyl, cassette the CD. Install root kits into your computer and use heavy handed tactics to impose ridiculously high fines on anyone whos IP has been associated with a download, a point the courts are just realizing the IP does not necessarily mean the owner of that IP did anything.
Then there was the OtherOS debacle, where people who legally purchased the play station to use an advertised feature were a tad miffed when an update from Sony disabled the feature completely. Then they came down like an 800 pound gorilla on a guy who tried to publish details on how to bypass the block, demanding all IP addresses of anyone who visited his site, all his twitter messages and so on.
Its no surprise they and other heavy handed media companies are becoming despised. In the US you need to sit and watch 1/2 hour of unskippable ads before you can see the movie you paid to see.
Then when Sony was hacked and 70 million users information exposed, the comments from Sony were how they were victims of some criminals who broke into their system and are working with the FBI (although why FBI I have no idea, unless Sony knows they were based in the US). No mention of the fact they were so stupid and irresponsible to store everyones data in plain text. Definitely a crime for insurance companies banks, I suspect a bunch of other sectors too and had a piss weak website security. Then knowing all that, how angry everyone was at their indifference to personal data, a month later Sony pictures is hacked the same way, and all their customer data compromised which was still stored in plain text.
Yeah, and that thing about regions is a pain. No sympathy for these guys at all, treat customers with contempt and as far as I am concerned commit more crimes against their own users than the public does to them.
But in answer to the OP’s question, is it stealing? The answer is no. Not technically anyway, its copyright infringement.
[quote]“Theft”
Copyright holders frequently refer to copyright infringement as “theft”. In law copyright infringement does not refer to actual theft, but an instance where a person exercises one of the exclusive rights of the copyright holder without authorization.[5] Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft, holding, for instance, in the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not constitute stolen property and that “…interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright… ‘an infringer of the copyright.’” In the case of copyright infringement the province guaranteed to the copyright holder by copyright law is invaded, i.e. exclusive rights, but no control, physical or otherwise, is taken over the copyright, nor is the copyright holder wholly deprived of using the copyrighted work or exercising the exclusive rights held[/quote] Copyright infringement
Is it unethical to DL music that you simply cannot find anywhere else, when the artists are dead and buried, when the only enfity who stands to lose anything (and then not even because they don’t offer their back catalogue anyway, trying to force people to buy their new manufactured crap) is a big fat multinational music monopolist like Sony or Time? No, it is most certainly not unethical. In fact, those suckers deserve to be treated that way.
and it’s not theft. as Mick points out, copyright infringement is not theft.
In Belgium any empty media you can copy on has a copyright tax on it … so, you download, burn it to a DVD, USB-stick, mem-card, HDD … you already paid the copyright … the institution that controls the copyright just has to pay to the right owners. If they just could get that right there wouldn’t be a problem. No thievery.
When you steal a DVD, you actually take a physical/tangible item … so downloading is as said not stealing.