[quote=“Mick”]Lets say I want to download a recording of love me tender by Elvis, here in Taiwan, its not illegal. Copyright for recorded material lasts 50 years. In the US however, it is illegal, as they keep increasing the length of time, which is now at something like 95 years.
Originally the length of copyright in the US was 14 years, extended each time it was about to expire. One might argue the morality of such extended lengths in copyright protection. You could even site the US constitution that specifically stated a limited time should apply.
I think everyone would like to see fair play.[/quote]
Good point. I forgot they keep increasing the limit. Bastards.
It’s all about money. Every time they extend the time limit the money continues to flow.
[quote=“Askr”]How do you guys justify your thievery? To yourself, god (if you swing that way), or society.
Or do you jut not think about it. Just curious.
I’ve downloaded plenty of albums that i haven’t listened too. Is it theft if I don’t listen to them.[/quote]
When I want to use services like Netflix or iTunes (just as an example) I get denied due to not having a US IP address or billing address. They say its because of copyright laws. So when legal avenues aren’t even available for me to get decent music and I am stuck with shitty Taiwanese music, I am left with no option but to torrent what I want.
Maybe if the movie or music industry decided to work with p2p/file sharing/globalization rather than wanting to milk as much money as possible from something, they might be better respected. As it stands they want to regionalize all content distribution so that they may maximize profit.
Definitely a positive side-effect of piracy: it has forced the movie industry to do what it should have done all along: simultaneous worldwide releases of movies.
Other important questions to ponder:
Is imagining having sex with someone other than one’s spouse adultery? How do you guys justify your adultery?
Is breaking laws immoral? How do you guys justify your immoral behaviour?
Is not believing in god(s) a sin? How do you guys justify your sin?
Is disagreeing with the government treason? How do you guys justify your treason?
Other important questions to ponder:
Is imagining having sex with someone other than one’s spouse adultery? How do you guys justify your adultery?
Is breaking laws immoral? How do you guys justify your immoral behaviour?
Is not believing in god(s) a sin? How do you guys justify your sin?
Is disagreeing with the government treason? How do you guys justify your treason?
Just saying…[/quote]
Christians seems to think that imagining sex with someone other than the spouse is adultery… as is breaking laws too.
Me personally, I try to stay out of trouble but laws that are clearly unethical should not be followed.
Stealing by the way is a criminal offense, copyright infringement is civil. A distinction I assure you is not lost on the groups like the RIAA and MPAA who pay the costs for enforcing their copyright protection.
Were downloading to be considered stealing and criminal, much of the costs of prosecution could be handed over to the police and taxpayer. Wouldn’t that be nice for the corporations, and why haven’t they pushed politicians for yet more corporate welfare. Oh, wait, they are doing that already and no one bats an eye because they’ve been brainwashed into accepting sharing or copying is stealing. Soon it will be an offense to lend someone a book or CD you bought, or attempt to resell it.
Other important questions to ponder:
Is imagining having sex with someone other than one’s spouse adultery? How do you guys justify your adultery?
Is breaking laws immoral? How do you guys justify your immoral behaviour?
Is not believing in god(s) a sin? How do you guys justify your sin?
Is disagreeing with the government treason? How do you guys justify your treason?
Just saying…[/quote]
You mocking me?
I just posed a question about piracy/theft in a torrent thread. People seem happy to discuss it.
Go start your own thread instead of being a troll.
[quote=“yuli”]
Just saying…[/quote]
Just saying what? Everyone is having a discussion with no problems. You don’t like the wording of my question?
It looks like it - and i thought i was participating in that discussion.
It looks like it…
Oh, no, this has nothing to do with “liking” or “not liking” - i was just reacting to the fact that your set of questions is really an assertion - and as such one could say it is not worded very well. But it seems that people participating in the discussion are not hampered by the wording and are posting comments addressing your assertion, so my comment is really not saying anything new and may as well be ignored…
I think yuli is making some analogies to point out that while the first question is valid, the second is based on a wrongful conclusion to the first.
i.e. Since downloading is not stealing , why should someone have to justify thievery, since they are not a thief but have breached copyright laws. Which is analogous to her first question about imagining have sex (which is not adultery) , then asking how they justify adultery.
Every day on my way to work I stop at a red light (as a pedestrian). There is usually not much traffic on the road, so most people just pass me, disregarding the red light. So why am I waiting? Is it because of me being afraid to be spotted by a cop lurking somewhere, or because I think respecting the law is something that benefits everyone and keeps a society running smoothly as opposed to having chaos when no one respects the law. Most of the time I am waiting cause I belief that respecting the law is the right thing to do especially when there is now pressing reason for me to be in a hurry. I could run the red light, and I have done it before, no big deal. It just doesn’t feel right to do it.
I feel the same way about illegally downloading stuff from the Internet. Can do it, have done it, but it does feel wrong. It’s something about not honoring the work of others, no matter if they are individuals or large corporations. If you want something and you value something, you ought to pay for it. That’s a contribution to make the world keep spinning smoothly as opposed to create chaos.
You know, I agree. But I have somewhat esoteric musical tastes. My favorite song for the last couple of years has been something that I want to buy on a CD, that I have tried to find on a CD, but have been unable to find anywhere in the West. There is nowhere to get it. I bought an illegally copied CD of it in West Africa, but the CD was damaged where that particular song was, and it won’t play. So up until a few days ago I listened to it on YouTube. Now it has been taken off - because of ‘copyright infringement’ - which is a joke in West Africa. I have never seen anything but illegally copied CDs and DVDs there, so it is certainly true that the artists are being ripped off. But if they then remove all versions of their work, where exactly are potential fans supposed to hear it? If potential fans have no way to hear new work, the artists are even worse off, since any concert tour depends on fans who enjoy the music already. Tell me where to get a legal copy of Duncan Mighty’s latest work, and I will gladly pay for it. Given, however, that there is nowhere to buy it, leave it on YouTube so that it has a chance to be heard.
Someone, even in West Africa, must have the rights for the music you want to hear. No one does that, but you could try to find the record company, contact them and purchase the CD from the directly, theoretically, right? If you really, really want to pay, there must be a way to do it. Otherwise how can those artists earn a living?
I have been watching a lot of award-winning foreign-language movies on YouTube, those they never show on HBO, and I am sure there are ways to get a legal copy from companies owning the rights for those movies. Well, it’s just so much more effort to be a good citizen.
Now, how about this? I watch the NBA finals on Taiwanese TV, so I have paid for it already as part of my TV subscription package. Now I am downloading the games via torrent, in case I want to watch them in a few years time. Is that stealing too?
This seems a hard concept to grasp, and how deep the rabbit hole goes seems to be escaping some. Copying is not (yet) considered stealing, it falls under the civil laws of copyright infringement, of which there are many levels, from minor to major.
Consider a knock of Gucci bag, someone has copied something that belonged to someone else, then the sales of which will hurt Gucci. But they are not going to be charged with stealing. Should plagiarism be called stealing? Sony copying Apples method of touch screen , stealing? criminal? and the taxpayers should pay for the costs of these corporations fighting over disputes of whose ideas have been stolen? A bunch of asinine lawsuits between companies now should be shifted from civil law (where companies pay to protect their work) to criminal where taxpayers pick up the cheque?
Stealing means, the person who makes the claim has been deprived of something unfairly, and its now in others possession and is no longer available to them. A CD in a shop would be an example, the owner now no longer can sell that item to someone else, they have been deprived of a potential sale. Copying does not meet this criteria as no rights of the copyright holder are diminished, nor are they deprived of anything.
The opposition will argue the loss of sale is what they are deprived of, but this post is long, if someone wants to make the case on that basis, I’ll respond to that.
Funny, I once saw an article about the Yoruba singer Lagbaja, where he gave the address of his record company and asked people to contact him / them directly if they wanted his music.
As is also true of Nigerian movies, the producers have a one-to-two-week window when they can make money. They sell as much legal product then as they can, because they know that after that the piraters will have set up production and flooded the market with illegal copies.
Musicians there make money from concerts, basically.
[quote]
Now, how about this? I watch the NBA finals on Taiwanese TV, so I have paid for it already as part of my TV subscription package. Now I am downloading the games via torrent, in case I want to watch them in a few years time. Is that stealing too?[/quote]
To me, it isn’t, because you have at least paid once.
And I think in discussions like this, people use the word ‘stealing’ loosely. They don’t really mean ‘stealing’, they mean ‘infringing copyright’ - it’s just that ‘stealing’ is a quick and easy way to discuss this issue while at the same time trying to give the act the gravity it deserves. Just like ‘shop-lifting’ just doesn’t sound as bad as ‘stealing’, neither does ‘copyright infringement’. When someone asks “Is buying an illegally copied CD stealing?”, they are not really confused about what stealing is or is not: they are just trying to ask “Is buying an illegally copied CD morally wroong - i.e., just like stealing?”
I am sure people mean “stealing” or “pirating” when they say “stealing” or “pirating”, otherwise they would use different words. This is the outcome of record companies and the like having successfully framed the discussion on their terms. Call it brainwashing, if you like. But my brain is still unwashed: in my world the thieves and pirates are those who have lobbied and bribed lawmakers in various countries into passing laws that criminalize the natural flow and exchange of artistic information (music, stage performances, paintings, stories, etc., can all be subsumed under “information” - but because that informaiton is of a special quality i call it “artistic information”)
That’s the way it should be, if you ask me: make recordings to advertise your skill, give away those recordings - which is easier than ever and really cheap, thanks to the internet - and then profit from the popularity you have gained that way and the people who therefore come to your live performances. Of course, large record companies are as obsolete in this natural business model as manual typesetters and ships’ radio operators who use morse code - so can you tell me why we taxpayers have to fund lawmakers and courts that protect an obsolete industry called “large record companies” but who do nothing to protect obsoleted typesetters and radio operators?
You will find record companies now take a cut of profits from live shows. And more recently they have been taking cuts from merchandise sales.
That’s been happening for at least 7 years if I remember reading the report correctly.
And it is the norm in Taiwan as it happened to a friend of mine about 3 years ago when his band signed a deal.
They made little in record sales and 25% of their live show profits went to the record company.
As a fair few shows were free I don’t think they made much. He still had his day job. On TV in front of thousands one day - in work the next day.
[quote=“Abacus”]If telling yourself that it’s only copyright infringement makes it easier to sleep at night then continue to do so.
Despite the fancy, schmancy law talk I consider it stealing. And I download whatever I feel like and it doesn’t bother me.[/quote]
I think the reason so many insist on calling it ‘stealing’ when it is actually ‘copyright infringement’ is precisely because they feel uneasy about it and fear it is morally wrong, and ‘copyright infringement’ just doesn’t sound as bad as ‘stealing’. They want to broadcast their moral unease. Look at the title of this thread: “Is downloading illegal torrents stealing?” If the question had been phrased “Is downloading illegal torrents copyright infringement?”, would there have been any discussion? No, because the answer is obvious. The OP used the word ‘stealing’ because he wants to know if others think it is morally wrong.
And once again Nigeria finds itself in the vanguard. We think it, as part of the developing world, is backward; when there, though, I sometimes had the unnerving feeling that I was looking at the future, not the past.
This is the outcome of record companies and the like having successfully framed the discussion on their terms. Call it brainwashing, if you like. But my brain is still unwashed: in my world the thieves and pirates are those who have lobbied and bribed lawmakers in various countries into passing laws that criminalize the natural flow and exchange of artistic information (music, stage performances, paintings, stories, etc., can all be subsumed under “information” - but because that informaiton is of a special quality i call it “artistic information”)