Is Europe less democratic than the US?

Politics International Politics
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[quote=“Rascal”]Now CF has admitted that he is too stupid to understand the question and fred joins him in dodging it so I guess I can reach the answer by conclusion.

I am just disappointed that they can’t admit that they were wrong. It’s not a big issue which I would bring up again (later) but it would show some character.[/quote]

Hahaha!

My original comment was carefully qualified three times.

So there is really nothing for me to defend. I just threw the comment out as a possibility, not as something I believed in, let alone something I wanted to argue with the tar baby Rascal about.

I do think the U.S. is a freer place for the individual than anywhere in Europe, but I don’t know that I would say its a more democratic place. For me, the latter issue is a more difficult question to answer.

42

Fair enough then, that clarification answers the question sufficiently.

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Rascal:

I have already “clarified” that I do not think that the EU government is particularly democratic or representative. This differs from individual European governments but ultimately many of these supranational decisions are being routed through Brussels from trade to education policy to immigration to whatever. Is that not clear enough for you? AND I do think that the EU government is far less democratic than the US government. Does this make sense now?

44

Rascal:

Let’s look at what the Czech president Vaclav Klaus had to say in Washington about the EU.

The Czech president remains convinced that “you cannot have democratic accountability in anything bigger than a nation state.”
Asked whether he could see the nation-state disappearing, Mr. Klaus replied, "That could well be the case, [but] it remains to be seen whether it will be the nominal disappearance or the real disappearance.
“We could see the scaffolding of a nation-state that would retain a president and similar institutions, but with virtually zero influence,” he said “That’s my forecast. And it’s not a reassuring vision of the future.”
Last week, the European Court of Auditors in Luxembourg released a 400-page report that found “systematic problems, over-estimations, faulty transactions, significant errors and other shortcomings” in the EU budget.
EU auditors could vouch for only 10 percent of the $120 billion the bloc spent in 2002. It was the ninth successive year the auditors were unable to certify the budget as a whole.

AND

The biggest challenge for the Czech Republic, Mr. Klaus said, is to avoid falling into the trap of “a new form of collectivism.” Asked whether he meant a new form of neo-Marxism, he said, "Absolutely not, but I see other sectors endangering free societies.
“The enemies of free societies today are those who want to burden us down again with layer upon layer of regulations,” Mr. Klaus said.
“We had that in communist times. But now if you look at all the new rules and regulations of EU membership, layered bureaucracy is staging a comeback.”
The European Union’s 30,000 bureaucrats have produced some 80,000 pages of regulations that the Czech Republic and the other applicants for EU membership will have to adopt.

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No it’s not clear. Look at the first post on the first page and answer the question from there.
Or say you don’t want to / are unable to. Everything you have posted so far does not relate.

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Rascal:

The “quote” that you have “quoted” me on is in fact a “quote” from Jonah Goldberg in the National Review, but I “quoted” it in a different thread relating to capital punishment, hence my confusion at seeing myself “quoted” in this new thread on the basis of what I “quoted” elsewhere.

I cannot speak for what he (and by “he” I mean “Jonah Goldberg” not a “generic he” that could be mistaken for say “someone else referred to as he”) means by “Europe,” but I personally do not find the “EU” democratic. The question became one of “nations in Europe” (as opposed to “Europe the continent” ) At least, that is what I am assuming is what “he” meaning “Jonah Goldberg” meant. Getting rid of the death penalty despite public support for it in certain “European nations” was evidence in “his” (and here “I” mean “Jonah Goldberg’s” opinion that these “European nations mentioned” were in fact less democratic if more civilized. So “he” (here again this is “Jonah Goldberg”) perhaps unwisely used the word “Europe” to refer to “all nations in Europe” or “Europe” rather than perhaps what “he” or “Jonah Goldberg” should have done which is to have mentioned the “EU” or “certain nations in Europe” or “the European nations that I referred to earlier.” This mistake by “him” or “Jonah Goldberg” is understandable since “he” and again by this I mean “Jonah Goldberg” failed to predict that “he” or “Jonah Goldberg” would be “quoted” by “me” that is “fred smith” in a comment that “I” or “fred smith” failed to predict would be “quoted” by Rascal in a new thread.

“I” as in “fred smith” hope that is clear now.

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Doesn’t really matter but I think you still miss the point: my concern is not saying “Europe” but that he (Jonah Goldberg) used to support his argument with an example convenient to him, i.e. an argument in favour for the US supported with an example for the US and one against Europe.
As such I would think his argument is poorly made since I easily could find examples against the US and pro Europe and thus claim / conclude “Europe is more democratic”.
I assume you would agree that this is not fair, so to say one or the other is more democratic because they sometimes follow people’s wishes is just wrong.
The other arguments/questions you brought up would IMHO be more reasonable as a basis for discussion.
Anyhow, since it was not your argument and we can’t be sure what he actually meant I consider the question answered.

48

One thing you forget about EU is that the total spending is less than 1% of EU GDP. Moreover, EU does not tax directly. Add to this that all major decisions are made by elected leaders. If a decision made is flatly against the will of the electorate of that leader, they can elect someone else at next given opportunity.

When it comes to economic freedom, then the US is clearly more free than Europe, but US nevertheless remains less free in that respect than for instance Taiwan.

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Mr. He:

Who is the head of the EU and to whom is he accountable? Who elected him? How is the EU Parliament elected? How often is it elected? What decisions and taxes are the purvue of the EU government (superceding the authority of nation states?)

Who voted to make capital punishment illegal? How is the Constitution being written? When and how will it be voted on?

Just asking.

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There are several. The head of the commission is Romano Prodi. He

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I don’t know where else to put this… but the Europeans are thinking about issuing passports for their pets:

newsday.com/news/nationworld … -headlines

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Mr He:

Thanks just returned and noticed your very comprehensive and helpful comments. Thanks.

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In another (new) thread perhaps? :wink:

Great to know you can still travel with your fish without a passport in future … :mrgreen:

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Actually, while the passports for pets may seem a bit of a joke, since so many people travel with animals, I think that such passports are important in showing vaccinations while also listing countries visited so that officials can determine if pets have been exposed to any health risks. Actually, it seems like a very good idea to me and perhaps could go a long way to preventing excessive quarantine when expats want to move around with their animals. I personally do not have any pets but the idea seems more sensible to me than the “aerobics with pets” and pet psychiatrists that seem to plague the cities on both coasts of the USA.

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One passport for fred’s pig, please …

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Rascal:

I am not sure whether you are joking or not but please not that my pig is winged and as such you may find a bit more dropping from the sky per “attack” than you would with your average, say, pigeon. Get my drift. :wink:

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Hey, being partially European I thought you would appreciate being awarded a European passport for your piggy. I mean giving it to you would go too far, but I would accept your pig getting one, wings or not. Note though that French airspace will be restricted for you, aeh, the pig I mean.

Still kidding (or not?). :wink:

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Below is an excerpt from a very good article regarding Democracy (or the relative lack thereof) and the EU:

[quote]What, then, is the attitude toward democracy of those who proclaim the obsolescence of the nation-state and welcome the erosion of the “Westphalian” notion of sovereignty? While there are some who ignore or are indifferent to this question, it would be inaccurate and unfair to claim that this is the general view of the champions of transnationalism. There is, for example, a lively and intense debate about the EU’s “democracy deficit” or “legitimacy deficit” and how to repair it. This concern even appears prominently in the EU’s Laeken Declaration, the official document that initiated the process leading to the new draft constitution. A cynic might say that this is the defensive response of European elites, worried that disillusionment among European publics with the remote and opaque decision making of the EU may derail the entire project of “ever closer union.” But I believe that it also reflects the fact that the global prestige of the democratic principle is perhaps higher than it has ever been notwithstanding the growing tendency to question the legitimacy of the modern state.

policyreview.org/dec03/plattner.html[/quote]

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[color=red]Reporter following trail of corruption in EU arrested[/color]

[quote]Police arrested a leading investigative journalist yesterday on the orders of the European Union, seizing his computers, address books and archive of files in a move that stunned Euro-MPs.

Hans-Martin Tillack, the Brussels correspondent for Germany’s Stern magazine, said he was held for 10 hours without access to a lawyer by the Belgian police after his office and home were raided by six officers.

“They asked me to tell them who my sources were. I replied that was something I would never do. Now they have all my sensitive files, so I suppose they’ll find out anyway,” he said last night.

“The police said I was lucky I wasn’t in Burma or central Africa, where journalists get the real treatment,” he added.

Mr Tillack said the raid was triggered by a complaint from the EU’s anti-fraud office, OLAF. He was accused of paying money to obtain a leaked OLAF dossier two years ago, which he denies.

The European Ombudsman has already come to his defence, issuing a harsh criticism of OLAF’s campaign to silence him.

Mr Tillack, who describes himself as a “pro-European federalist”, has been OLAF’s most vocal critic, accusing it of covering up abuses within the EU system.

As the author of a recent book on EU corruption, he has the greatest archive of investigative files of any journalist working in Brussels.

OLAF was created to replace the old fraud office UCLAF, which was accused of covering up abuses by the disgraced Santer Commission. Many UCLAF staff were transferred to OLAF.

telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh … world.html
[/quote]

60

I absolutely agree. It is also very important to know which language to speak to pets in now that the borders are open. We could inadvertantly blame the pet if, for example we said “SIT!” to an Italian dog on holiday in Britain for example. It’s not the dog’s fault it can’t understand English. No. I’d blame the Italian owner for not teaching the dog English. After all, English is the world language and all pets should learn how to undertand it. Oh yes. That’s the way forward; bi-lingual cats and dogs (not that cats ever listen anyway in any language).