She could, but in Chinese (Mandarin or Minnan), this sounds like everyone must be Hoklo.
As I have mentioned before “Taiwanese” is not undefined in Taiwan. It either mean Hoklo in an ethnic sense or it means a Holko TI supporter in a political sense.
The DPP have a lot of work ahead of them if they want to make Taiwanese mean everyone on Taiwan.
Let’s put it this way, if Taiwanese is an all inclusive term for people in Taiwan, how many WSR or aboriginal are/were leaders of the DPP?
How many WSR / Aboriginal wanted to be leaders of the DPP? You can also look this way no?
Not really. Taiwan has around 1000 registered political parties. So I can image that there are a lot of aboriginal and WSR that seek political recognition in Taiwan.
The problem is in the DPP, they have a glass ceiling for any non-Holkofied individuals from rising through their ranks.
Whereas in the KMT, there are a few BSR and aboriginals in the high ranking positions.
Further illustrating why “Taiwanese” is less inclusive than “Chinese” in terms of grouping the people of Taiwan.
This whole incident of parsing the monk’s words only show TI supporters are overly sensitive to their own flawed identity platform as being a code for racism in Taiwan as it applies to TI.
Again, those that want to confuse the whole intellectual environment about Taiwanese identity do so by throwing so many different kinds of monkey poo that people are distracted from the real point.
My point is that Taiwanese are a people at least in part because they feel like one. And not just during greenie rallies, but in their day to day life.
Hsing Yun - What’s his real name by the way? -This “Star Cloud” name seems like part of his “I’m a Buddha” trip - says there is no such thing as an ethnic Taiwanese identity. Of political siginificance is that he says this to mainlanders programmed by the CCP to believe this. For an important person like him, this is tantamount to a political statement, one that clearly denies the subjective feelings of many of his followers. Hence the thread title.
The average Taiwanese - the real deal, not the cyber-monkeys - don’t feel that they are part of the same society as the mainland Chinese. Maybe they will change their minds if PRC society becomes more open to its subgroup’s subjective identity. But that is just a wild hope at this point. Until the PRC becomes a humane society, Taiwanese, for all their faults, will continue to be a separate group, both objectively and subjectively.
This fact can be used politically, but it is not a fact invented for use by political parties. It is a reality, IMHO.
Your definition of Taiwanese is entirely dependent on distinquishing them from the mainland Chinese. The beginning of ethnic nationalism to create a new nation.
But you contradicted yourself already. Since your definition is a entirely grounded in a political identity. Not to mention the fact the DPP created “Neo Nativism” 3 weeks ago.
So even if your memory and Chinese language skills don’t allow you to look up when in where Bentuhua came from. You cannot deny that “Neo Nativism” was just recently created by the DPP for a political purpose.
BIGJohn indeed… :roflmao:
Your definition of Taiwanese is entirely dependent distinquishing them from the mainland Chinese. The beginning of ethnic nationalism to create a new nation.
But you contradicted yourself already. Since your definition is a entirely grounded in a political identity. Not to mention the fact the DPP created “Neo Nativism” 3 weeks ago.
So even if your memory and Chinese language skills don’t allow you to look up when in where Bentuhua came from. You cannot deny that “Neo Nativism” was just recently created by the DPP for a political purpose.
BIGJohn indeed… :roflmao:[/quote]
You haven’t actually come even close to making a single point.
My definition of Taiwanese is based on the majority of people who live on Taiwan and call it their permanent home. At its base it’s not politicized in my view, although you may wish to look at it that way because it gives you more poo to throw. The DPP can play off (or try to) this natural sense of Taiwanese identity held by most people who were born or who grew up on the island, but we’ll see how successful they are.
As for your word games with respect to DPP theories or concepts, they’re all total bullshit, just another game you like to play with what you regard as online “toys” i.e. the other participants of this forum. The statement made by Hsing Yun denies Taiwanese identity, your smelly but cunningly squirted verbal diahrrea notwithstanding.
You can make fun of my Chinese all you want. The average Taiwanese I know say I’ve made great progress recently and maybe in a few years I’ll be reading the paper. If you want to be an ass****, go ahead and make fun of people who are studying Chinese but aren’t fluent yet.
As to the guy’s name, I assumed it was a title or adopted name, as it was so grandiose. If it is not, then the non-asinine answer (not that that would have any relevance to you) would be “Actually, that’s his real name.” Then I’d say, “Oh, really. Thank you.”
Thank god the average Taiwanese is not like you AC, or there wouldn’t be so many foreigners on this island. I’d even bet that you’d be pretty unpopular here, what with your distorted attitudes.
Is that why you had to leave? It must have been terrible for you here: All those foreigners who liked Taiwanese, and the Taiwanese liking them back, foreigners marrying Taiwanese and having kids, WSR and BSR getting married together and being friends, the democractic system working how it was supposed to, then people blaming the PRC for muscling in and intimidating the whole happy arrangement. Must have driven you mad!
In any case, I’m sure you can find some Han Chauvinist buddies from the PRC in New York City (If that’s where you actually are. I mean, who can trust a single word you say?) if you get bored of talking crap on Forumosa.
But who accepts this identity in Taiwan? You can redefine ‘Taiwanese’ all you want, but if no one reciprocates, then there is a flaw with the definition.
Go ask the average Taiwanese, like myself, if President MYJ is Taiwanese, in Mandarin or Minnan. He fits your definition those who live in Taiwan and call it their permenant home. But I assure there will be a number of people in Taiwan that will say that MYJ is not Taiwanese. So obviously their working vocabulary of ‘Taiwanese’ is a lot different then your definition and closer to the one I described.
Really? How would you know? It’s not like when I’m in Taiwan, I announce to everyone that I’m WSR/BSR background individual that is fluent in English. If you’re in Taipei, you could be passing by people like me all the time. I pass by them all the time at the office.
But this thread isn’t about you or me.
It’s about why are TI supporters slighted by an individual’s comment. It seems quite harmless as the statement, “There are no hyphenated Canadians, only Canadians.” Unless you’re francophone who believes in Quebec Independence, why would any Canadian be offended by unified national identity that has diversity.
My God man, but you can speak rubbish.
I’ll be back in town in few days to point out your ridiculousness again. Until then, have fun throwing monkey poo.
An old friend just called me up recently. He use to be a DPP organizer in the US. Been state side for at least 25 years. Probably a US citizen or green card holder by now. Did a lot of work for various Taiwanese Associations. Still believes in the TI cause.
In your opinion is this person Taiwanese?
Another friend I met up with recently. Studied with me in Taiwan and the US. Been working in PRC for 15 years. Got married to a PRC wife and just had a kid. Use to be a strong supporter of TI back in high school, but no longer has that view. Feels TI is not practical.
In your opinion is this person Taiwanese? Is his child Taiwanese?
Like BIGJohn… :roflmao:
Should we discredit your comments because your name makes it sound like your overcompensating for something too.
I know my towering intellect is impressive. But no need to refer to me as Godly…AC will do…
An old friend just called me up recently. He use to be a DPP organizer in the US. Been state side for at least 25 years. Probably a US citizen or green card holder by now. Did a lot of work for various Taiwanese Associations. Still believes in the TI cause.
In your opinion is this person Taiwanese? [/quote]
Yeah.
[quote]Another friend I met up with recently. Studied with me in Taiwan and the US. Been working in PRC for 15 years. Got married to a PRC wife and just had a kid. Use to be a strong supporter of TI back in high school, but no longer has that view. Feels TI is not practical.
In your opinion is this person Taiwanese? Is his child Taiwanese?[/quote]
Depending on this person’s origins. If his family came from Taiwan, then yeah. If he was born in Taiwan, then yeah. And his child is a half-half. Half Taiwanese, half Chinese. (And I thought the wall here is also a half…)
Simple as that.
goingstrong,
The DPP organizer background is a Hoklo-fied Hakka. So you agree he’s Taiwanese even though he lives in the US most of the time. Contradicting BigJohn’s definition of Taiwanese.
The guy whose been working in the PRC, he’s a BSR Hoklo born in Taiwan. His wife is Shanghainese. The kid is born in the PRC. They’ve already moved back to Taiwan recently.
What the different between his kid and myself? Besides the fact I was born in Taiwan? We both have a Taiwanese father and WSR mother. Lineage is a paternal thing in Chinese society. When they fill that kid’s registration card the “ansectorial hometown” is going to be in Taiwan somewhere.
I take it your definition of Taiwanese, is based on an individuals position on TI. A Taiwanese that supports unification is not Taiwanese. So a Taiwanese that supports TI and lives in Europe, US, or Canada would always be considered Taiwanese.
Ara… :no-no:
I take it, from your view, that means for every Italian, Chinese, Polish, etc. person who lives in the US or other countries means they’re not Italian, Chinese, Polish, etc. … No surprise on your view.
I don’t care who the person is or his/her belief political wise. If the person was born in Taiwan or has family from Taiwan for generations, he or she is a Taiwanese. Simple as that, again.
goingstrong,
That’s not my veiw on personal identity at all. I’m just pointing out your defintion and BigJohn definition of Taiwanese are not exactly a like. In fact, both your definition don’t really encompass the entire population of Taiwanese.
I even met a Taiwanese born in the USA, parents were BSR, that competed in figure skating for ROC in the Olympics. Born and trained in the US. Spoke Chinese like a white person and didn’t speak Minnan.
Is this person Taiwanese in your opinion?
Depends how bicultural and bilingual these individuals were. Would people from Italy, Taiwan, or Poland consider these people native, or people that emmigrated from their homeland?
The problem with Taiwan and Mainland China, especially people from the southern urban centers, like Shanghai and Taipei, is that sometimes even I cannot distinguish individual’s background by accents, phrasing, or mannerism alone.
The uniquness is even less pronouce in the oversea Chinese population where ROC and PRC immigrants intermingle, the mandarin accent of southerners and northerners even out. Mandarin terms intermingle. The naunce differences disappear within years, not generations.
Given that this is a nature acculturation of PRC and ROC individual when they intermingle. Would it be fair to say in a population like that there are not Shanghainese, Wenzhounese, Fukenese, Taiwanese, Toishanese or Cantonese; but just Chinese?
Most people find it fair to say Shanghainese, Wenzhounese, Fukenese, Taiwanese, Toishanese, Cantonese, etc. are just subsets of Chinese. Who would be offended by stating that Cantonese are Chinese?
Which brings us back to the original comment what is incorrect about the statment Taiwanese are Chinese?
[quote=“ac_dropout”]goingstrong,
That’s not my veiw on personal identity at all. I’m just pointing out your defintion and BigJohn definition of Taiwanese are not exactly a like. In fact, both your definition don’t really encompass the entire population of Taiwanese.
I even met a Taiwanese born in the USA, parents were BSR, that competed in figure skating for ROC in the Olympics. Born and trained in the US. Spoke Chinese like a white person and didn’t speak Minnan.
Is this person Taiwanese in your opinion? [/quote]
Contradiction much lately? Taiwan is full of diverse languages influenced from China, US, and Japan. Mandarin is one of them thanks to martial law. Again, this brings up the differences between Australia, New Zealand, and the UK.
[quote]
Depends how bicultural and bilingual these individuals were. Would people from Italy, Taiwan, or Poland consider these people native, or people that emmigrated from their homeland? [/quote]
They can be both. 
[quote]The problem with Taiwan and Mainland China, especially people from the southern urban centers, like Shanghai and Taipei, is that sometimes even I cannot distinguish individual’s background by accents, phrasing, or mannerism alone.
The uniquness is even less pronouce in the oversea Chinese population where ROC and PRC immigrants intermingle, the Mandarin accent of southerners and northerners even out. Mandarin terms intermingle. The naunce differences disappear within years, not generations.
Given that this is a nature acculturation of PRC and ROC individual when they intermingle. Would it be fair to say in a population like that there are not Shanghainese, Wenzhounese, Fukenese, Taiwanese, Toishanese or Cantonese; but just Chinese? [/quote]
Blech… More Han nationalistic words blabbing into my ears. Taiwanese are not a minority.
[quote]
Most people find it fair to say Shanghainese, Wenzhounese, Fukenese, Taiwanese, Toishanese, Cantonese, etc. are just subsets of Chinese. Who would be offended by stating that Cantonese are Chinese? [/quote]
Of course, because Cantonese is one of the most common languages in China. roll eyes Who would be offended by that?
[quote]
Which brings us back to the original comment what is incorrect about the statment Taiwanese are Chinese?[/quote]
Because Taiwanese are Taiwanese. =_= If you have 200 years of history on an island, you gain your own culture and identity for the island. Much like any other growing country in the world.
So where are they are majority? In Taiwan? There are minority identities in Taiwan?
So can there be people in Taiwan for more than 400 years that are not Taiwanese? Are aboriginals called Taiwanese?
So Cantonese is only a language in your opinion. There are no Cantonese cultural identity that have been developing in Southern Asia for thousands of years.
Is Taiwanese just a language in your opinion as well, spoken south of the Min?
Is the aboriginal language in Taiwan called Taiwanese?
Seems like you are getting more and more exclusive with your definition of Taiwanese, so that WSR born on the mainland can not be Taiwanese. That somehow those that support reunification on Taiwan, cannot possibly be Taiwanese. Contradiction BigJohn’s definition. Without a consistent definition of Taiwanese, it is no wonder people just use the larger set of Chinese to describe everyone in Taiwan, to the consternations TI supporters.
Unless you start accepting the definitions of Taiwanese I proposed, I’m afraid the flaws in your definitions are going to become more and more apparent as this discussion goes on.
Some Taiwanese just reject TI and the false Taiwanese identity being used for political gain. More and more people are going to be rejecting these arguments, since the DPP is unable to forward a consistent argument as more and more cross strait cultural exchanges occur. Is that so hard to accept?
I’m neither offended nor confused by the statement made by the monk. As an average Taiwanese should I have been?
So where are they are majority? In Taiwan? There are minority identities in Taiwan? [/quote]
Yeah. Of course. 
[quote]
So can there be people in Taiwan for more than 400 years that are not Taiwanese? Are aboriginals called Taiwanese? [/quote]
Impossible logic. :roflmao: Aboriginals are Taiwanese. They’re the first Taiwanese.
[quote]
So Cantonese is only a language in your opinion. There are no Cantonese cultural identity that have been developing in Southern Asia for thousands of years. [/quote]
Cantonese = Chinese
It doesn’t need a cultural identity. =_= It’s already itself used in one big land mass.
[quote]
Is Taiwanese just a language in your opinion as well, spoken south of the Min?
Is the aboriginal language in Taiwan called Taiwanese? [/quote]
Taiwanese is something like British English that travelled over to America. It stayed with an island and grew with the island. The aboriginal language isn’t Taiwanese but the people are still Taiwanese. If you’re trying to twist my words, it won’t work. (nyah) Taiwan is an island full of various languages.
[quote]
Seems like you are getting more and more exclusive with your definition of Taiwanese, so that WSR born on the mainland can not be Taiwanese. [/quote]
That’s not an exclusive. That’s common sense again. They can be Chinese Taiwanese, but if they’re not born in Taiwan, then isn’t it obvious? That makes them Chinese.
:roflmao:
I’m not contradicting his at all. We both agree that people born in Taiwan are Taiwanese. 
We could have slight different views out of that but we both agree on one common thing.
Too many flaws in your definition is laughable beyond degree. (Edit: This suddenly reminds me of IRobot! Earlier, it would’ve been Star Trek NG with the borgs…)
[quote]Some Taiwanese just reject TI and the false Taiwanese identity being used for political gain. More and more people are going to be rejecting these arguments, since the DPP is unable to forward a consistent argument as more and more cross strait cultural exchanges occur. Is that so hard to accept?
I’m neither offended nor confused by the statement made by the monk. As an average Taiwanese should I have been?[/quote]
Being a Taiwanese has nothing to do with politics.
Regardless of what year it is, the wall just keeps bringing on the laughs. Bravo!
goingstrong,
If they (Cantonese) don’t need a cultural identity, why does Taiwan need one so badly?
The Cantonese occupy the entire mainland landmass as well?
Do the Taiwanese occupy the entire Taiwan island?
I find your statments very confusing. You know if you just accept the simple notion that the Taiwanese Identity is a necessary component of TI promoted by the DPP, you wouldn’t be talking yourself into a circle.
I beleive that ROC and PRC can be seperate political entities without the need of identity politics. Chinese people can live in seperate countries and have no problem sharing common culture, language, history, etc.
So when a Chinese person says they are speaking Taiwanese, they really mean they are speaking one of the 13 recognized Aboriginal languages in Taiwan.
Seems like your definition of Taiwanese is pretty out there.
All of them called Taiwanese in your opinion. So if an Aboriginal tells me they are speaking Taiwanese, they could be referring to Mandarin.
Seems like your reductive definition, is getting more and more confusing.
Not really BigJohn believes that only those that reside in Taiwan, and already have a network of extend family in Taiwan are Taiwanese.
You believe only if you are born in Taiwan can you be considered Taiwanese.
So you would say Pres MYJ is not Taiwanese. BigJohn would say MYJ is Taiwanese.
When I brought up the example of the born in Taiwan DPP organized that resides in the USA, you said that person was Taiwanese. I would believe the BigJohn would say that person was not Taiwanese, because he was a US citizen or greencard holder living in the US.
You haven’t even commented on the Olympic athlete example I provided. I can give you a back story to help. When she was learning Chinese in Taiwan, she once mentioned to me she though the WSR teacher was very snobby, because the teacher made a comment on how she couldn’t understand the taxi driver due to his thick Minnan accent. She was born in the US, trained mostly in the US, and gained her ROC citizenship for the Olympics. Her parents are from Taiwan.
So either you have to change your definition of Taiwanese to include her. Or you have to judge her as not being Taiwanese.
No one is twisting anyones words around. I’m just pointing out the flaws to the false Taiwanese identity promoted by TI supporters and the DPP. Your confusion on the simple term Taiwanese only further support my claim. Is it no surprise that a simple monk can say, “Which Taiwanese is not Chinese?” in this confused environment.
Where did he said that you need to be politically or culturally whatever to be Taiwanese? As long as you were born in this Island or are a descendent of people born here, or you feel this island as your homeland, you are a Taiwanese. You can be a Taiwanese but consider yourself as Chinese, but you’ll still be a Taiwanese if you want to.
I have a friend in Taiwan that is married to a Taiwanese woman. Although he has Portuguese passport (he was born in Mozambique), he has a Indian Muslim. He only spent 3 years in Portugal (spent a few in Mozambique and a lot in England), but he speaks perfect Portuguese. I still consider him a Portuguese, no matter he doesn’t look like one, doesn’t have a Portuguese name, nor he has Portuguese culture and costumes… But still, he is Portuguese.
mr_boogie,
The TI supporters are the ones that started this whole 新臺灣觀 (New Taiwanese concept) and which sparked off 新台灣論 (New Taiwanese debate) in the 90’s.
Prior to that most BSR and WSR just thought of themselves as Chinese.
Only a small minority of people in Taiwan feel that Taiwanese and Chinese are mutually exclusive identity. Since it supports a Taiwan Independence of a new Taiwan nation through the establishment of a new Taiwanese identity.
The vast majority of people in Taiwan, like myself, feel that Chinese and Taiwanese are not mutually exclusive identities. And have no problem admitting that Taiwanese Han culture is a subset of Chinese Han culture. In addition, this shared culture has no bearing on the Strait Issue and ROC sovereignty in Taiwan.
So here comes a monk. A popular monk. A monk that doesn’t believe in TI. And says something along the line “Which Taiwanese is not Chinese?” All the greenies pour on the hate and are censuring this monk. This is a message that is suppose to reduce tension in the Strait and hopefully in Taiwan. Personally, I think the greenies are getting worked up over nothing.
Is it no surprise 71% of Taiwan beleive politicains and media are manipulating the ethnic issue.
An old friend just called me up recently. He use to be a DPP organizer in the US. Been state side for at least 25 years. Probably a US citizen or green card holder by now. Did a lot of work for various Taiwanese Associations. Still believes in the TI cause.
In your opinion is this person Taiwanese?
Another friend I met up with recently. Studied with me in Taiwan and the US. Been working in PRC for 15 years. Got married to a PRC wife and just had a kid. Use to be a strong supporter of TI back in high school, but no longer has that view. Feels TI is not practical.
In your opinion is this person Taiwanese? Is his child Taiwanese?
Like BIGJohn… :roflmao:
Should we discredit your comments because your name makes it sound like your overcompensating for something too.
I know my towering intellect is impressive. But no need to refer to me as Godly…AC will do…[/quote]
No, you misunderstood. I meant that you are an idiot.
BigJohn is just a nickname. It’s based on my size. I don’t call myself Master Star Cloud. That’s going a bit too far.
If the people you refer to were born in Taiwan then that certainly falls into my definition of Taiwanese, which of course you prefered to distort rather than simply take in.
Anyway, there are always borderline cases.
Back to the point: Taiwan identity exists, no matter how many twits and twats want to politicize it either by exaggerated denial or affirmation, or - in your case - deliberately obtuse intellectualization.
Hisng Yun’s statement was certainly insensitive.