Is Iraq Worse off now than under Saddam Hussein?
- Yes
- No
0 voters
Is Iraq worse off now or better. If so, how?
And was it worth the death of all US servicemembers?
Right now, I’d say yes it is worse off. And it will continue to be so for a while yet, but longer term the country’ll be better off without him.
But although the end is good, I still don’t agree with the means.
Forget the cheerleaders on CNN, what do the people of Iraq say?
[quote]4/30/2004
BAGHDAD
MT, you’re getting two different things confused. Thinking they’re better off now is not the same as whether they approve of the continued presence of US troops.
Mother T.
Nice of you to pander to Phled’s pecadilloes by using sources he’ll likely slander anyway.
Testsuo. Interesting point. You don’t think MT was a jump ahead of Fred’s opening move do you? You know Fred, he really meant to ask exactly what MT replied to.
And replying to Fred directly. The people of the Appalashians (don’t know how to spell it and don’t care) are extremely happy their wee daughter is up before the beak for abusing Iraqis menfolk.
Shit! Everyone is happy and the world is goooooooooooooooooooood! There is no conflict. Life is sweet. Enjoy!
HG (AKA, the original Stepford wife . . cos it’s better than the remake)
As for the poll, another option would be “is it closer?”
I don’t think they changed Iraq’s location, just its government.
No doubt. But if we don’t open the door for him, hopefully we can stop him barging in through it 
Nearer thy god to thee . . . ?
All so true Tetsuo!
HG
[color=blue]The only thing that’s important is that the people of Iraq weren’t annilhated by giant mutant lizards shooting laser beams out of their eyeballs.
Period. :fume:
This poll, therefore, is completely irrelevant.[/color]
Assuming though – just for the sake of argument – that this wasn’t about giant mutant lizards but because we really care about the Iraqi people and couldn’t stand to see them suffering under Saddam’s thumb one minute longer – even if it meant sacrificing hundreds of American lives and spending billions of dollars to do it – then, yes, I think they are better off.
There’s no question about it, actually. That’s like asking if Iran is better off now that the Shah is gone. I think the vast majoriity of people in Iraq would themselves agree that they are much better off.
Or, as one supporter of the future Ayatollah of Iraq, Moqtada al-Sadr, puts it:
“Thank God the Americans got rid of Saddam, but it’s not good they’re fighting [Sadr’s] Mahdi Army,” he says, running a string of brown prayer beads through his hands…
Recent national polls show a dramatic increase in Sadr’s popularity. In one US-sponsored survey published in June of more than 1,000 Iraqis in major cities, 81 percent said their opinion of Sadr was “better” or “much better” than three months earlier."
So a better poll question might be: will the people of the United States be better off a year from now when Moqtada al-Sadr has set up an anti-U.S. Islamic republic in oil-rich Iraq populated by a whole new generation of American-hating terrorists spawned by the invasion and occupation of their nation?
That’s a tossup. I’m not too worried about it happening though because the giant mutant lizards will be a much bigger problem long before that happens.
Not only is Iraq worse off now, but according to the same MP report Afghanistan may be a failed state. Seems to me that a failed state is much worse than a rogue state (e.g., N. Korea). That’s because while it’s not in the national interests of a rogue state (what Iraq used to be as well) to give/sell/whatever WMD to terrorists, a failed state may just do precisely that.
In turn, that’s because the state’s failure is due primarily to a lack of internal security; note that this is exactly what Bush has failed to provide Iraq, security. It seems reasonable to conclude that, under Bush’s leadership, Iraq is therefore well on the way to being a failed state as well.
I don’t think it’s any surprise that under Bush’s post-war ‘planning’ the only way Iraq is better off now than before is ideologically. In other words, all Iraqis have now is a new ideology based on the virtues of western-style democracy, compliments of the US and its ‘coalition of the willing.’ Iraq’s internal security certainly seems to be deteriorating. So they have the ideology plus the Sunnis seem to be in larger agreement with the Shi’a.
In a further refinement on the patterns established under Bush’s ‘leadership,’ the Sunnis and the Shi’a seem to be united against Bush.
Tetsuo, you’re right, I didn’t answer Fred’s question. He asked whether Iraq is better off; I answered that most Iraqis feel they are worse off and wish the US would get out. Someone suggested that Fred might question the source of my polls, but polls of Iraqis have consistently yielded those results. Just do a google on “poll iraqis 2004” and you will find abundant articles from numerous credible sources backing up that point.
So, to answer Fred’s question: are the Iraquis better off, where should we go for an answer? Should we rely on biased western media, that has only limited, short-term experience and understanding of life in Iraq before and after the US invasion? Or should we rely on biased Iraqi people and media, who have long-term, first-hand experience and understanding of life in Iraq? I’m not being a smartass, Fred, I’m asking that sincerely.
If, for the sake of argument, one were to assume (as Fred apparently believes) that the Iraqis are better off, then why don’t they realize it or admit it? Why are they so damn ignorant or ungrateful or whatever it is? Is it because they are so blinded by the deeply embedded muslim rage against the west that they can’t appreciate the good we have done for them? Or are they fooled by misleading arabic propaganda? Or cannot see the big picture because they are frustrated by present day realities of bombings, kidnappings, etc.? Or are they right and Fred and Dubya are wrong?
When I googled for poll results yesterday, one startling thing I noticed was that 30 - 40% of US citizens have consistently responded that they believe the Iraqis view the US as liberators, but in one poll of Iraqis just 2% took that view. So what’s the deal? Are they better off but they just don’t know it? Or are we being misled and they are actually worse off?
Incidentally, I admit that Iraqis opinions are affected by a longstanding arab grudge against the west, and I look forward to learning more about that. On my vacation next week I’m bringing Bernard Lewis’ book “Crisis in Islam” to gain a better understanding of the long-term relationship between the two. But, just because they’ve long viewed the US as satan, doesn’t mean their negative views are wrong in this case. Without spending a long time on the ground there maybe none of us is really qualified to say.
Spook – in the last panel of that cartoon it is eerie how much those Republicans sound like Fred and Tiredman.
Amen to that, bro. It’s that hydra-headed groupthink that got them (and us) into this mess in the first place:
Rebel Cleric Declares Revolution In Iraq
Spook:
Yawn. Are you trying to tell me that Iraq was not a problem before Bush? Or that we were not spending billions to maintain no fly zones? or press for inspections? and do you seriously not believe that given the increased laxity that Saddam would not have tried again to build wmds? or finally, did you forget how world public opinion and especially in the Arab world was pressing for an end to sanctions? What selective memories we all have. The situation is not perfect now but can you not understand why after 12 years (and not even including all the problems before that) why someone would finally want to deal with saddam once and for all. Oh another revolution? Is that also like the one that was predicted in April? or the civil war that was supposed to break out? Hmmm?
Of course it is better off… Iraq now has hope and not suppression… ok hope that things will change and a future
The only thing that changed under Saddam was the body count of murdered people
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A car bomb attack on a police station south of Baghdad on Thursday killed at least five people and wounded 21, a health ministry official said.
reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm … ID=5879264
A violent new uprising threatened to undermine the new Iraqi regime
Gloom and doom. Gloom and doom. Might as well throw in the towel and leave Iraq, right MT? What is your plan?
What about my earlier question, Fred? If Iraqis are better off, how come all the polls of Iraqis consistently show that they do not view the US as liberators and they wish the US would leave?
what does iraqis wishing the us would leave have to do with whether they’re better off or not? tons of koreans wish the us would leave. these same koreans view the us as villian during the korean war and north korea as the victim. does that mean they’re not better off than before the korean war?
i’m sure there are lots of germans and italians who similarly wish us troops would leave.