Lately, I 've been going thru some personal stuff, and a part of it is how I’m dealing with the Taiwanese. I am become to believe that that there are NO good honest Taiwanese out here in taiwan. THat they really in their hearts hate anything that isn’t taiwanese. Im SURE there have been many therds on this but grant me this one…
Which, of course, is why no Forumosans are married to Taiwanese.
The super cynic in me would reply, “It’s a better meal ticket in town.”
Depending in which poll you consult, I may be only 21.8% correct about this or 87.3% correct. YMMV.
You are dealing with the fact that you really don’t understand this culture by concluding that you know everything. It is a common reaction and you will get over it.
ethnocentrism
n : belief in the superiority of one’s own ethnic group
I am assuming that since you singled out the Taiwanese that you do feel that indeed there are good, honest people in the world but none of them happen to be Taiwanese. If you feel you must generalize about certain human behavior please do it in regards to the entire human race, “It seems there are no good, honest people in the world” is a better statement because you immediately know in your heart that this is not true (assuming that you see yourself or someone you know as good and honest.)
I understand that you are frustrated right now, but please keep derisive generalizations regarding any particular ethnicity or community to yourself, some of us may find them offensive.
My inlaws are good honest people, but usually their intentions manifest themselves in ways that drive me crazy. I have to remind myself of all the times that they have been decent and good to me, and then I start to feel a little better. I also know that most Taiwanese don’t hate foreign things, they just don’t really understand them.
What pisses me off to no end is the abysmal state of the service industry in Taiwan. Coming from North America, where the consumer is king, it drives me up the freaking wall when I have to deal with some of the absolute morons working in customer service fields here in Taiwan. :fume:
Possibly the difference is that in Taiwan they don’t subscribe to the Cult of the Individual like we do in the west.
Personally I don’t like the idea of the customer being king or the vendor being king. Why can’t people learn to communicate effectively without needing to dominate others?
My fustration became smaller, when I stopped to exercise my standards, normally applying to all members of the human race, to the Taiwanese (really: Taipei-ise for me). There is no such thing as a Taiwanese individual.
You always deal with some extension of Chinese culture. Be it a family-fraction on two legs (not an individual), a fraction of a Taosim-driven work culture, a fraction of that Confusius-thing behind a steering wheel (I can kill all but my family members and friends).
Honest Taiwanese? You will see this term does not makes sense, as honesty is not a part of Chinese culture, where keeping the face and talking around a subject to avoid … losing the face … is more important.
Remind me to change my avatar, not sure who may be offended by the gospel truth from my mouth 
I’m going to be the PC cop here because I personally feel you are taking this too far. Point by point:
So Taiwanese are not human’s?, or at least they do not stack up in the “normal” human ethics department. I know a word to desribe this type of statement and it would ruffle a lot more feathers than “ethnocentric” (see previous post)
I don’t even know where to start with this one…Just because someone may put their family first in many situations does not make them any less of an individual, recognizing the individuality of a person who at first may seem to only be part of this “crazy chinese culture cult thing” is one of the most rewarding experiences you can have while here in Taiwan. Not sure why you blamed Taoism specifically for the elevation of work-ethic above honesty here, as opposed to, say, capitalist greed? And as for Confuscianism, two of the highest virtues present in the philosophy are benevelence towards others, and honesty and trustworthiness.
Yes, the whole “lose face” thing seems wierd, but by extending your non-understanding of this to say that honest Taiwanese do not exist you will never develop any type of real understanding. Don’t you think that at least some of the devout Buddhist monks and nuns here on Taiwan might be honest people? What about the guy who chased down my girlfriend in the train station a few days ago to return her wallet that she unknowingly dropped?
Do I think that all Taiwanese are the most righteous and honest people in the world? No. Am I often confused and even put off by Chinese culture in action? Yes. Do I make rash and ignorant generalizations about a culture I do not understand? No. There is a difference.
Imagine if this thread was about bashing, say, all British people in England, or all Africans in Africa…people would not take to kindly to it, would they? So why is it okay to be this way towards the Taiwanese?
You’re misreading that. He meant “normal” in that he normally applies these standards across the board, but found that it was easier to just not, and this made things easier and less frustrating for him. It could be seen as more that he realized his standards did hold for everyone, so he stopped expecting them to.
I think he means “honest” in the sense that they’ll come right out and say what they mean rather than step around it in order to make sure no-one loses face. I could be wrong though.
It’s all about context. Namahottie’s post, at least, was culture-shock driven. Bob’s, I think, was more inappropriately worded than deliberately offensive.
points well taken…especially your first point of misreading his use of “normal.” Basically I was just saying that we all need to be careful to not extend our cultural differences into negative generalizations, I’m sure we all agree on that. But sometimes the words don’t come across that way. We need to be cafeful how we say something (hence the whole “PC cop” thing.)
You are wrong Tetsuo. I try to be deliberately offensive generally but in this case I was actually trying to help.
Namahottie, sorry to see that you are still feeling a bit low. Remember the Austin Powers movie. You haven’t really lost your mojo…it will be back. Maybe it’s just gone into hibernation because of the cold weather, or maybe your low is caused by being away from “home” during the Western holiday season.
I’m sure you’ll be able to see the people around you in a more positive light soon.
I’m still trying to figure out if the common Western understanding of ‘face’ is even valid. I haven’t come across any situations so far which validate what most Westerns I know of define as ‘Asian face ethic’. :s
Either I’m just stupid, I haven’t run into any of these situations yet, or there’s something more to it than the simplistic model people in the West described to me. 
Honestly, a part of me feels quite hurt by comments like yours. According to your beliefs, me, my family members and my good friends are simply bad, dishonest people who hate anything that are not Taiwanese simply because we are Taiwanese. Ouch. Wow.
I personally don’t agree with you. However, you have the right to believe in what you need to believe in at the moment and I am not going to sway you either way, since I believe your belief at this moment is giving you something that you need to hold on to in a foreign country in order to cope. On top of that, you are probably feeling terrible, since it can’t feel too great to be an environment where you believe the majority simply hate you just because what you look like, and that everyone around you is going to lie to you and be mean to you without getting to know you first.
Perhaps your belief helps you to make sense of what’s happening to you and around you so that you feel more in control. Fair enough, and certainly understandable. I wonder if there are ways for you to develop new beliefs to interpret events in your daily life and to evaluate Taiwanese people around you. Black and white thinking leads to rigid behaviors, and that doesn’t help us cope. However, maybe things are just so rough for you right now and all you need to do is to vent. I certainly can relate to that.
I hope your frustration will ease soon, and that this new year brings you what you need to feel better. Take gentle care.
I have nothing but admiration for my Taiwanese friends, all of whom I have met for the first time during my 6 month stay here.
My experiences with them have included:
[ul][li] Their warning me that many Taiwanese are unused to dark people, and that my wife may encounter some strange looks and comments - and that some children may seem afraid of her (thanks for the warning, but it hasn’t happened yet)
[/li]
[li] On our selection of an apartment, they provided almost all the furnishings we have here, including bedding (brand new bedding, at that), whilst refusing to be compensated in any way (we were also offered air conditioning, a sofa, and some chairs, which we just couldn’t fit in the apartment)
[/li]
[li] The landlady told us that the rent for this apartment was NT$24,500 a month (despite the fact that it had no fridge); one of our friends decided to bargain with her on our behalf, and all of a sudden the rent is NT$12,500 a month, and the landlady buys us a brand new fridge
[/li]
[li] The same friend also stood guarrantor for our ADSL account - we had ADSL in less than a week
[/li]
[li] Our friends have us around to lunch once a week, and have taken us out for coffee and meals on numerous occasions - they insist on paying for us each time
[/li]
[li] As a lay pastor and evangelist, I was in need of a venue for my activities; one of our Taiwanese friends volunteered a spare office he used to use for seminars and training programs - air conditioned, with a whiteboard, photocopier, tea and coffee facilities, restroom facilities, a dozen desks and chairs, and several computers - it was offered to me to use as long as I need it, and he refused to charge me anything (as things turned out, I didn’t need it, but the offer was there regardless)
[/li]
[li] When we purchased a sofa from a mate of ours, one of my wife’s work colleagues told us that she would have her husband (who owns a removal van), collect it for us and drop it off at our apartment after work. This involved him driving from Gongghua to our apartment near Nanjing East Road Station at 11:30pm. He refused to take a single dollar, despite our efforts to press money on him.[/li][/ul]
These are a few things I can think of off the top of my head.
My wife and I have been overwhelmed by the spontaneous generosity we have found in this country. The people here seem genuinely friendly and interested in others. I’ve never lived in such a place in my life (except for some parts of Australia, heh). 
What about the guy who brought my friend’s wallet to their house after they lost it and demanded money before he gave it back. They only gave him a few hundred dollars when the wallet itself is worth several thousand (the implication here of course is that if there was any cash in the wallet he’d have just pocketed the cash and binned the wallet). Rude, greedy and stupid to boot.
[quote=“Fortigurn”]I’m still trying to figure out if the common Western understanding of ‘face’ is even valid. I haven’t come across any situations so far which validate what most Westerns I know of define as ‘Asian face ethic’. :s
Either I’m just stupid, I haven’t run into any of these situations yet, or there’s something more to it than the simplistic model people in the West described to me. [/quote]
I was at Alleycats Friday night with a group of forumosans, including imaniou and she was telling me how one of her chinese friends was telling her about how she kept out of the sun so as not to get dark skin… talk about being absent minded, cause imaniou is a lovely black chick.
The local friend soon realized her predicament. I don’t think imaniou rubbed it in to her.
What about him?
[quote=“Satellite TV”][quote=“Fortigurn”]I’m still trying to figure out if the common Western understanding of ‘face’ is even valid. I haven’t come across any situations so far which validate what most Westerns I know of define as ‘Asian face ethic’. :s
Either I’m just stupid, I haven’t run into any of these situations yet, or there’s something more to it than the simplistic model people in the West described to me. [/quote]
I was at Alleycats Friday night with a group of forumosans, including imaniou and she was telling me how one of her Chinese friends was telling her about how she kept out of the sun so as not to get dark skin… talk about being absent minded, cause imaniou is a lovely black chick.
The local friend soon realized her predicament. I don’t think imaniou rubbed it in to her.[/quote]
Is that to do with Eastern notions of ‘face’, or is that simply to do with ridiculous imported Western notions of what constitutes beauty?