Yes but I don’t think it is possible to copulate with a dead horse so that story must have been meant to be interpreted symbolicaly or something. 
Well in the snuff film “Passion of the Christ” it took almost 3 hours to kill Jesus, so there was a limit to the tolerance.
That’s okay, Bob, you can be one of the queens who ritually utter obscenities.
Dead horses–they stay stiff longer! Aum.
PS. Here’s a great Q & A site about the J-man! Check it out.
Turning the other cheek works well with sane people, meaning the vast majority. It doesn’t have much value in dealing with despotics or madmen who are bent on destruction and really should only be seen as another force in nature where disaster is best mitigated. It is a message to the futility of violence in getting ones own way and that ultimately life only blossoms and is enjoyed during times of peace when one isn’t at the beck and call of violent men.
So of course it’s still a relevant message. I doubt it was Jesus who actually said it first though.
Jesus is one of those grand daddy players of the millennium*10.
He can walk on water.
Sold more books than anyone and isn’t an author.
Had a fly hair cut.
Rocked the dopest of the dope sandals.
The list goes on and on…
That’s all I have to say about that.
As long as you practice a “social gospel” everything is okay.
Historians are pretty sure it was a guy named Eddie.
In my humble opinion, Christ’s is easily the best story ever written.
I do think most of it is true although segments significant, even central, to Christianity I can’t buy.
Still, think of it. Not as it’s practiced now, or ever, by any group, but as it was written.
A wise old businessman I once knew said there are only two truly permanent ways to change human behavior. One is death, the other Christianity. I believe he has overwhelming evidence in support of his argument.
Far too many so-called Christians completely ignore the teachings of the man they claim to worship as a god. The current crop of leaders of the US is no exception.
“Blessed are the peacemakers” - Jesus Christ
Some would argue that that’s when it works best. Of course, you have to find out where your priorities lie. If you believe that survival is the most important thing, then pacifism of course doesn’t make a lot of sense. On the other hand, if eternal life is the issue, and living as closely to God’s word as you can gets you there, then pacifism makes perfect sense.
My own family/ethnic history has direct experience with pacifism in the worst kinds of circumstances - I’m a Mennonite. Mennonites are a pacifist, anabaptist group founded around the time of the Reformation by a disgruntled Roman Catholic priest in Witmarsum, Holland. Mennonites had divergent views and splintered into different denominations, including the Amish and the Old Order Mennonites that are “famous” for their traditional rural lifestyles (horse and buggy, no electricity, simple lifestyle). I come from a group know as the Russian Mennonites, which is actually a bit of a misnomer, because we were German-speakers living in colonies in the Ukraine, having been invited there by Catherine the Great. Things were great for over a hundred years, the “Russian” Mennonites prospered, and then things started to get worse. Limitations were put on the special status of Mennonites in the Russian Empire, and by the end of WWI, rich, German speaking “foreigners” were certainly unwelcome in what was to become the Soviet Union. Many of my grandparents’ immediate relatives were killed, and yet they never gave up their faith.
I’m not sure that I could do that - I don’t think I’m strong enough. But I have enormous respect for people who value the sanctity of human life so much that they will not take it, even when it comes at the cost of their own. That kind of courage is rare.
[quote=“Danimal”][quote=“hatch”][quote=“Danimal”] There are times, even today, where “turn the other cheek” is the wisest and/or most sincere show of love. But not always.
[/quote]
I would realy like an example of such times. Honestly. A simple one. [/quote]
One of my co-workers was bad mouthing me in meeting last fall. Actually, from what I hear, it was more like slander, but I digress. Anyway, against the advice of my supervisor and several co-workers, I didn
Very good topic. I see the usual G.W. Bush bashing" but generally good comments.
I think the Bible generally supports self-defense both on a personal and ststist level.
Here are some links that help explain this:
An article with a good Old Testament/New Testament comparison:
worldnetdaily.com/news/artic … E_ID=25442
“If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be
shed for him,” we are told in Exodus 22:2."
“And David said unto his men, Gird ye on every man his sword. And they girded on
every man his sword; and David also girded on his sword: and there went up after
David about four hundred men; and two hundred abode by the stuff.”,1 Samuel 25:13
“Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his
scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.”…Luke 22:36
Just some select verses.
For the pacifist side:
Matt 5:39b-41
Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you
on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if
someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him
have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go
one mile, go with him two miles.
Matt 26:52b
All who draw the sword will die by the sword.
2 Cor 10:3-4
For though we live in the world, we do not wage war
as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not
the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have
divine power…
Eph 6:12-17
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but
against principalities, against powers, against the
rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual
hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore
take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able
to withstand in the evil day, and having done all,
to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist
with truth, having put on the breastplate of
righteousness, and having shod your feet with the
preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking
the shield of faith with which you will be able to
quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take
the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit,
which is the word of God…
Eccl 9:18
Wisdom is better than weapons of war…
Eccl 7:19
Wisdom makes one wise man more powerful
than ten rulers in a city.
Zeph 2:3
Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth…
seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be
ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’s anger.
Matt 5:5
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
1 Cor 11:1b
Imitate Christ.
Isa 53:7
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open
his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he
did not open his mouth.
Rom 8:36b
For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.
Mark 15:7b, 15
Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who
had committed murder in the uprising… Pilate released
Barabbas to them. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him
over to be crucified.
3 Jn 1:11
Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good…
1 Jn 3:15b
You know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
In rebuttal, there is this article to consider:
Self-Defense is Biblical. It places some of the above quotes in context. And that is essential in understanding their intended meaning.
A Pastor far more eloquent that I sums it up quite well:
"Prior to His crucifixion, Jesus revealed to His disciples the future hostility they would face and encouraged them to sell their outer garments in order to buy a sword (Luke 22:36-38; cf. 2 Corinthians 11:26-27). Here the “sword” (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler’s equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. A plain reading of the passage indicates that Jesus approved of self-defense.
Self-defense may actually result in one of the greatest examples of human love. Christ Himself said, “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:14). When protecting one’s family or neighbor, a Christian is unselfishly risking his or her life for the sake of others.
Theologians J. P. Moreland and Norman Geisler say that “to permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong. To allow a rape when one could have hindered it is an evil. To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable. In brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission. Any man who refuses to protect his wife and children against a violent intruder fails them morally.”
ronrhodes.org/qselfdefense.html
Some would argue that that’s when it works best. Of course, you have to find out where your priorities lie. If you believe that survival is the most important thing, then pacifism of course doesn’t make a lot of sense. On the other hand, if eternal life is the issue, and living as closely to God’s word as you can gets you there, then pacifism makes perfect sense.
[/quote]
The issue for me is not eternal life. Lack of faith… perhaps. Harmony, peace and love for all. It has to be looked at as in everyone does it. It has to be global. No one is bent on destruction in a world where people actually live by Jesus’s words. No need to present the other cheek because others love you and wouldn’t want to hurt you/themselves. The same as socialism is only a distant dream for the communist if surrounded by a free democratic world. I can live my life in hope for eternal life but that’s seems pretty selfish. Again it would jut seem to be all about me. If you lose your life because you refuse to be “bent on destruction” for mankind to benefit, it’s like putting a stick in the wheel of greed. A great sacrifice but one of many that we will need to change this turmoil of hatred and confusion. If anything, I believe that Jesus’s sacrifice was his last teaching but his most valuable one. If sacrifices is what it will take, someone had to start the motion.
Absolutely! Good post Maoman.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]I think the Bible generally supports self-defense both on a personal and ststist level.
Here are some links that help explain this:
An article with a good Old Testament/New Testament comparison. . . [/quote]
I wasn’t commenting on the wisdom of bible quotes in general, because there’s a lot of crazy stuff in the Bible – for example Ezekiel 25, quoted in part in Pulp Fiction:
biblegateway.com/passage/?search … version=9;
I’m not a Christian, but if I was I wouldn’t believe in the truth of the above passage. If I believed in God I would refuse to accept that He is so angry and full of smiting and vengence. The above words were clearly created by the crazy men who wrote the book of Ezekiel and are not God’s words. Nor do I put much faith in what a preacher says, just because he claims to have a direct line to God. 
But on the other hand, it’s my understanding that most of the words attributed to Jesus in the Bible are very kind and loving and good, in particular the Sermon on the Mount. So I was really only asking if one can realistically live by the words of Jesus (turning the other cheek, giving to those who ask, not judging etc.). Sure, one can follow such advice from time to time, but is it really possible or advisable to follow it regularly and consistently? And you’re right, Richard, the same question applies equally re the words of Buddha, Mohammed, Ghandhi, etc.
While love, understanding and compassion are clearly preferable to prejudice, hatred and violence it’s hard to see what is gained by succumbing to one who wrongfully commits serious violence against you, particularly lethal violence. Perhaps the point is that you will not defile yourself with having commitee violence and while you may suffer great injury or death, you will set a good example to be remembered by your survivors.
I think you have had some bad experiences. Preachers that I have known have been very good at listening to people and not being judgemental and not claiming to have a direct line to God. They go through a lot of study and practice to get to where they are.
The main problems I have had when going to church is when they allow the laymen to speak. They can turn me off in a hurry.
I just wanted to quickly tip the hat to Mother Theresa for starting this thread, and to those others who have added such great posts. So far I haven’t thought of anything to contribute that others haven’t already said (and generally said very well), but it sure has been/is interesting to read. Well done all around. :bravo:
[quote] Preachers that I have known have been very good at listening to people and not being judgemental and not claiming to have a direct line to God. They go through a lot of study and practice to get to where they are.
The main problems I have had when going to church is when they allow the laymen to speak. They can turn me off in a hurry.
_________________[/quote]
I’d have to agree here. Many of the men of cloth that I have know were exceptional listeners with good intellects…but when the common folk a started talking in church, I could see them cringe at times.
Now, I don’t know how it works in the Catholic Church, but Methodists are very liberal about life in general, and none I’ve met ever claimed to have a line from God.
I prefer to follow the thoughts written in the Gnostic Gospel According to John: “The kingdom of heaven is upon you, but you do not see it.”
That is, that the light of God, the spiritual life we all desire at some point in life is individually and personally accessible by myself (or yourself), and doesn’t need a middle to get to. I can deal with that, and it doesn’t bother me that others choose to follow a religion, or practice a structured religion.
Even Picasso learned the art forms of his time, before he set out on his own. I feel to get to a spiritually free place, free of religion, one must pass through one or more of them.
I think people are having a hard time distinguishing pacifists from pushovers. How many of us like to be around people bent on getting in the last word, seeking revenge on anyone who has looked at them cross-eyed, and fly off the handle when things don’t go according to the way they want it to? I know I was forced to spend 6 years in the same house as someone like this and felt that he could have benefitted from some of these teachings. Pacificism is never outdated and probably is needed more now than in other times in the past with so much anger, hate, and death going on.
I don’t think pacificism is meant for everyone nor for every time. It’s not a means of living, but a guide. And sometimes it’s much better to walk away and think about what’s going on than to simply fight without considering the situation.
I second that. Great diversity and interesting subject.
[quote=“Tainan Cowboy”]…and the sword of the Spirit,
which is the word of God… [/quote]
Jesus’s family was every single one of us. He was just as protective and loving to a stranger as he was to his mother. If I could only find the quote.