Is Ma Ying-jeou a pussy?

Politics Taiwan Politics
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[quote=“It is me again”]Not long ago I met a German customer who asked me: “Woaaah, you do business in Taiwan ? That must be very tough, everybody there is corrupt, right ? Even that former president”. What could I say ?

If Mr. Ma can get rid of this image, then Taiwan is making great progress and its economy will benefit - much more than those tourists from China can contribute.[/quote]

Ma needs to make concrete efforts to clean up HIS party which is the source of Taiwan’s corruption and the only likely group who can fix it. He needs to push judicial reforms and sunshine bills to make the legislative unable to keep feeding from the trough as the system has been designed to do. But he won’t. They reason Ma is clean is the reason he is ineffective: ie, no political base.

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Firstly, Uroducas. I agree. There is no correct answer here.

TaipeiDwag. I get it. I understand the point you make. I wonder if however you have spent time in China, or discussed Taiwan with people from the mainland? A couple of friends here that say “Nahhhh” so we should all “man up” is not a persuasive argument. I agree the sky is not falling, and theres no danger of anything happening now or at any time the DPP were in power. You have something else to add?

Mucha Man, [quote] Do I advocate state to state? Of course. Do you really expect to get anywhere by denying reality? [/quote]. This is really tough (assume everything above this point , I agree with). Let me come back to it, but first let me say. If you were driving a car in a one way road (the right way) and an articulated lorry was coming at you in the wrong direction at full speed, would you not pull over because reality says you are in the right, and you are driving in the right direction so it is out of control articulated lorries responsibility to get out of your way?

But you do go on to say [quote]
Are state to state relations one step toward de jure independence? Of course and so they should be. Again, what else is there? [/quote] Bingo, ding ding ding. Thank you for entertaining the possibility that there may be something else.

Earlier you took exception to me saying you were pushing for de jure independence, then here say [quote] We either are working toward this, however carefully and craftily and slowly it may be (perhaps with the last hope we have that we can hold out long enough for China to change), or we are working toward capitulation. [/quote]
Sounds like a genius plan, except, everyone knows it. I know it, you know it, the Chinese and the US know it. Maybe those who preach this approach, took their head out of the clouds long enough, they might see, not only does the whole fucking world know this nifty plan, they have already adapted their policies towards Taiwan and China to account for this. At which point, hopefully, those pursuing this avenue, come to the unpleasant conclusion. All roads are closed, it goes nowhere, achieves nothing, costs a fortune and is completely pointless, the cunning plan is not quite as cunning as they thought.

I actually believe Taiwan does need to employ passive aggressive techniques, to buy time. not just sit there saying “nope, nope , nope” this makes it far to easy. There needs to be at least the illusion that the final goal of the PRC may one day, a long long time from now, and after many many years of feet dragging that maybe, taiwan might possibly give China what it wants. Although, not really.

BigJohn, sorry about the threadjack, look on the bright side, Ma’s policy towards China is partly a reflection on why he is seen as a pussy. I don’t think its really possible to talk objectively about Ma without discussing his approach to China. Of course he is only a few months into his presidency, I think there is still plenty of time for him to find his footing.

And lastly mrboogie, if Ma really was the monster who is planning to hand over Taiwan. How do you think he would do it? Put it to a popular vote? or create an unstable situation, stand down the military or have the otherwise occupied and then walk in the PRC.

Whens the next anti Ma protest?

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Sure, that’s the point - Ma can’t even control his own party so despite whatever lip service he pays to defending the sovereignty of the ROC, etc you never know who is really pulling the strings or what you’ll get in the end. Too weak to be worthy of the stature of the office of the President? He doesn’t even refer to himself as anything more than a regional administrator… Yeah, he may get things done - but there will be costs involved. He desperately needs China to make concessions to give him some credibility - his whole campaign hinged on China. The question is, what’s China’s incentive to make him appear even semi-successful?

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Well there will be high level talks with Chen Yunlin, the chairman of PRC pseudo-negotiation committee, in Taiwan in the next couple of weeks. On Oct 25 the greens will have a protest for having these talks.

I think having these talks would be a good thing for Taiwan.

TI as it stands in the DPP is an dying movement. If they are coming out to protest talking what does that say about their position on freedom of speech in general.

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I think their incentive is to avoid another DPP administration. But they are wary of seeming to help Ma, as that could also backfire. Maybe this “no war for the next 4 years” is a kind of lifeline the PRC are throwing to him. Or maybe he’s just trying to fart perfume, who knows?

Mucha Man: Ma Ying-jeou was Minister of Justice for Chiang Ching-guo, and my Taiwanese friends say that he was known as a straight arrow back then. I don’t think it’s fair to say that he is clean because he has no political base. That would imply that, if he had a political base, he would get dirty. Did you mean to say that he lacks a political base because he refuses to get his hands dirty? That would be closer to my understanding of him.

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He was Chiang Ching-kuo’s English secretary and not Minister of Justice until Lee Teng-hui’s presidency. The New Party and other WSR elements hated Lee like they hate CSB now, and they claimed that MYJ’s general lack of action and ineffectualness as minister was a sign that he was standing up to corruption. This was ‘proved’ when Lee fired him. His record of ‘fighting corruption’ at the MOJ is just another part of the myth.

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Feiren: Thanks for the clarification on the times for Ma’s job functions. As to his being ineffective in the job, I can believe that. But I can also believe that he was fired for being anti-corruption. Are you saying that Lee wasn’t corrupt? Every well-educated Taiwanese person I’ve had a serious talk with about Lee has either agreed that he was probably corrupt regarding the Lafayette deal to some extent, or angrily claimed the others were much more corrupt than him. In short, I’ve never heard Lee called squeaky clean, unless by diehard dark green types who still believe that CSB wasn’t corrupt. Of course, I don’t really know, and I’m guessing neither do you. But if you want to stick to cold hard facts, what factual basis do you have for calling Ma’s supposed cleanliness a myth? I don’t see how being fired proves he isn’t as clean as people say he is.

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John,

Premier Hau Po-tsun is much more likely to have profited from the Lafayette deal than Lee Teng-hui. Hau was a far more powerful figure than Lee during the early days of Lee’s presidency. The charges of corruption against Lee mounted as it became clear that Lee was slowly stripping the mainlander elite of their power and privileges. Lee’s predecessor Chiang Ching-kuo favored state capitalism over private capital, and his supporters were horrified when Lee allowed ethnically Taiwanese businessmen to dominate the economy. The allegations of corruption against Lee need to be understood in the context of the time.

I’m certainly not saying that no corruption occurred on Lee’s watch–there was undoubtedly an unhealthy closeness between the business of government and the business of big business under Lee. But nothing was ever proved against him, and it is important to understand that allegations of corruption are a favorite charge by WSR against Taiwanese politicians that they don’t like.

I meant that Ma’s being fired doesn’t prove that he was fired because he was a crusader against corruption. Ma was probably removed because LTH no longer felt that he needed to keep so many token WSR in government or for some other political consideration.

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Feiren: Fair enough!

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Ma made a few more claims that weren’t as widely reported today:

“I promise that Taiwan will not sink into the ocean under my watch”

“We will not cease trading with the rest of the world during my term”

“I will never dissolve the KMT as long as I am president”

Bold statements! A man of vision as anyone can see.

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Taipei Times (today)

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And me was here thinking it was because all the ding-ding’s were loosing money by the billions on the stock market…

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Ridiculous!! Theres a mass protest, tens if not hundreds of thousands of people expressing their wish for an independent Taiwan. Tsai ing wen rightly questioning , how it is that Ma Ying Jeou doesnt include the rest of Taiwan in the talks they are having with china, while Lee Tung hui says, there is no such thing as a 92 consensus.

Do we see Ma come out fighting to support his policies, or instead was off talking about fruit. Important as the fruit imports and exports  may be. Either Ma comes out and defends his tactic of wooing China, or these protests are going to escalate.
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I don’t agree with your analogy. If China is the truck then there is no swerving away. The truck is intent on crashing into you in which case you can build up your own vehicle and make it clear any accident is going to be a bloody mess for everyone, or you can try to negotiate, appealing to the truck’s self-interest or humanity.

I still do, as acknowledging that state to state declarations are a step toward independence is not pushing.

I would think it would be more along the lines of manipulating the election commision, the courts, the media, the military and the economy (creating absolute dependence on China) to create a permanent KMT majority. If Taiwan is handed over it will be as a special administrative region, not a normal province of China.

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I don’t agree with your analogy. If China is the truck then there is no swerving away.[/quote]

Not for china, but Taiwan doesn’t need to be a rabbit , frozen in the incoming headlights.

Kung Fu, at its best, is the art of fighting , without fighting. Less people get hurt this way.

At a simplistic level, at leaast you should understand your opponent. China, right now is being fueled by Nationalism, its a huge energy that has been used against many other nations recently.

My view is not complicated. it is, for now, dont deliberately challenge the Chinese nationalism, point them in another direction.

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We can point their Nationalism towards Vietnam, Korea and so… can’t we?

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Nah, I don’t think there really is this Chinese nationalism you’re talking about. When you’ve been wronged it’s natural to want to react. That’s called human nature.

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Mucha Man: As much as I totally am with you on the diserability of state-to-state relations / negotiations between the PRC and ROC, it ain’t gonna happen mate, no way no how. That’s the whole point: the PRC cannot accept Taiwan as a state.

As regards the recent demo: it’s inevitable. These are very interesting and difficult times for cross-strait relations. There is a lot of emotion and political energy here. Mass acitivity is inevitable.

BTW, despite the name of the thread, and despite the fact that I can’t REALLY be sure, I do kind of trust Ma not to sell out Taiwan, despite how lame he may be seeming recently in terms of being the big daddly prez.

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And when you are still angry about how your great great great grandfather was wronged, well, that’s called something entirely different.

Anyway, you had the Olympics, the event you’ve been waiting for for 100 years, so now it’s time to grow up.

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I don’t agree with your analogy. If China is the truck then there is no swerving away.[/quote]

Not for china, but Taiwan doesn’t need to be a rabbit , frozen in the incoming headlights.

Kung Fu, at its best, is the art of fighting , without fighting. Less people get hurt this way.

At a simplistic level, at leaast you should understand your opponent. China, right now is being fueled by Nationalism, its a huge energy that has been used against many other nations recently.

My view is not complicated. it is, for now, dont deliberately challenge the Chinese nationalism, point them in another direction.[/quote]

As much as I support your ideas and views for an independent Taiwan, however, the fact is, its just not currently possible, atleast not without starting a shooting with the PRC.

And yes they are currently fueled by nationalism and they have every right to do so, they are doing quite well for themselves and all of the chinese are becoming more “prideful” so to speak. In fact, their achievements and accomplishments, for example: space and olympics, continues to give their people pride and hope, and because of that, it may in fact be a reverse as to what you were saying. What i am trying to say here is that it may have an impact on Taiwan (with them pointing us to another direction) rather than the other way around.

Only way to defend against this would be the transparency of their intentions.