Is Taiwan Independence mainly a Ben Sheng Ren movement?

Politics Taiwan Politics
21

True in a limited way only. Taiwan independence sprouts from everywhere. So does reunification sprout from all sides. But as I said, in a limited way, you will find that anger between Ben Sheng Ren and Wai Sheng Ren, is sparked by disagreements between the 2… but also misunderstanding between the 2, as well as, other things … which ends in more anger. That’s often the way it is with any disagreement that people feel required to make the other agree on.

Actually the question should be: Do Ben Sheng Ren and Wai Shen Ren hate each other to begin with? A lot do, but usually only those who are concerned about politics, and not all of them - all though I do think a lot do.

And the main point is why? Mainly BIASED opinions. Not willing to admit their own faults. Family pressure. Tradition related habits. Misunderstandings. Both sides are just about as equally guilty for hating each other.

This leads us to the last question? Should there be Ben Sheng Ren and Wai Shen Ren terminology? Just ask this: Should there be Ben Shen Americans and Wai Shen Americans? Then ask: Who should be considered as Wai Shen Americans? People who imigrated from Europe…or all the people who imigrated from England… the early pilgrims, black americans? Who should be considered as Ben Sheng Ren Americans? Indians? Mexicans? Texans? French? Settlers only?

So, actually when we ask about independence sprouting up because of the disgreement between 2 groups in Taiwan… you accidently … to some people… might make it sound like you think there are ONLY 2 groups in Taiwan, who are worth talking about. Actually there are 3 or 4 main categories of ORIGINS of which the people came from, and all these other types of people ALSO play an important part in sparking INDEPENCE or REUNIFICATION ideas… but there is only 1 GROUP of people in Taiwan: people who live here, and people never agree on everything.

I don’t think you said anything wrong… but just wanted to clarify.

22

BSR v WSR issue on Taiwan is similar to the “White Nationalism” movement in the USA.
Originally White Nationalism wouldn’t accept Irish, Greek, or Italian immigrants in the USA as White.

Basically trying to re-invent “Taiwanese” to not mean “Hoklo” and to mean “Chinese on Taiwan” seems like a huge amount of wasted effort.

23

AC… I agree with you on this point if you are referring to Hakka (aboriginy tribes) and how Chen is trying to give extra benefits to tribes and upplay different tribes. I think that is what you are talking about.

As for this part, maybe he was trying to win the support of tribe votes… probably, but I know some aboriginies which I grew up with whenever I was living in Taiwan, and in the recent years, some could see through this, and realized it’s not good for Taiwan.

They told me benefits for them because they are aboriginy, is great, but it’s causing racisism again for them. they say people in Taiwan should be considered one group… from many different places. Not many groups in Taiwan from many different places and the first group to arrive that’s almost extinct, gets the most love. They don’t even like it themselves in many cases.

But nevertheless, although politically and economicly incorrect, it still shows how honest Chen was, by fullfilling the requests of the tribes to do this once he was in office - now this could really be a cheap trick to get votes again, but Chen did what he said he would do, once again.

(don’t mistunderstand - not a supporter of Chen, or any party)

24

So why did Annette Lu invite the tribes to move to South America?
Could it be both CSB and Annette are honest about different things?

How about we lie and tell everyone on Taiwan they are “Chinese.”

Obviously being honest with people on Taiwan is not working very well.

You know I once dated a White girl and she asked me if I thought she was fat compared to my ex-girlfriend who was Chinese. So being completely honest, I told the truth, someone who wears a size 4 is fatter than someone that wears a size 0. From then on I discovered it is okay to tell white lies to keep a relationship going. Relationships based entirely on truth and honestly never work.

25

1.) You got the point on the politics side of things about honesty not working. People are not stupid, they are uneducated and so if you are honestly disgareeing with them they won’t vote for you. If you are honestly agreeing and fullfilling their undeducated demands, like Chen, they will vote for you and the country falls. (Careful now, this does not mean we can now say Chen is corrupt, because that had nothing to do with the fall. He was honestly fulling their OWN demands … that is what had to do with the fall of economy.)

2.) BUT, you half got the point on the relationship side of things. If you are player, and your RELATIONSHIP is based on HOLDING TOGETHER ONLY, honestly will not work.

A society you can not pick, they simply exist, maybe you could educated them, but it’s hard and that’s where you get into leadership - but your girlfriend you can pick… and it is easier to educate a girl than a society. So the point is WHITE LIES will maybe work based on PLAYER or FOR THE SEX or STICKING TOGETHER STANDARDS.

But, if both parties understand what REALLY WORKS, HONESTY is no problem for success. WHITE LIES will never get you too far anyway. You will constantly run into trouble. Politics and Relationships are the same.

1.) IF a SOCIETY understands true POLITICS (almost impossible), and the PRESIDENT understands true POLITICS and they both WANT IT and ARE HONEST - it will work. That’s WHY MORALS and EDUCATION are important.

EXAMPLE: American History MORALS and FREE ECONOMICS (democratic but limited by God’s morals) VERY SUCCESFUL until now because America is loosing morality.

2.) IF a BOY understand TRUE LOVE (almost imposible), and the GIRL understands TRUE LOVE and they both WANT IT and ARE HONEST - it will work.

EXAMPLE: Christian Marriage - MORALS, HONESTY and God’s family plan. Very succesfuly in LOVE.

I think you get the point now. NO SYSTEM WILL WORK unless they are educated in the MATH (political and econimcal facts… not new age junk) and ALSO have the feeling of HAVING TO DO IT (morals from something supernatural).

OTHERWISE, we must resort to white lies and bribery and chaos and looping through democracy and then back to communism and then democracy and then back to communism. Never perfect.

I think that’s why God said blessed is a nation that believes in Him.

26

Amen.

27

And Judeo-Christian religions are prevalent in the Far East.

28

BSR have been in Taiwan for as long as 300 years. My Taiwanese side of the family were among the very earliest.

most of the WSR came over with Chiang Kai Shek IN 1949

29

try to explain Chinese roots to someone who cannot even identify where their family is originaly from.
My Taiwanese side of the family is on the 16th generation here (according to them). From where they are and what exactly they are (Han, Hakka, Aboriginal) they cannot say. My wife doesn’t look that much of chinese, her bone structure is not much chinese (she is strong, compared to normal people here). For their guess, they are a complete mixture by now. How can they relate to China? My father-in-law almost doesn’t speak Mandarin (mind you, we are talking about Yilan, not the south) and the only time he went out of Taiwan was to go to Macau to the wedding. Aside from that, he is blue as he can be (well, part of my wife’s family is into politics, and they are all blue, except for my brothers/sisters in law which are all green).
I think that the people here are divided into WSR/BSR because of the segregation that was promoted by the KMT. Most of my wife’s friends are blue, and they constantly discuss politics with her. But it is hard to do it, when most of them are 2nd generation WSR that benifited from that. They don’t think my wife is underclass, but they cannot hide the fact that their sympathy in politics is because of their own past. Constantly they send my wife with photos of places from where their families are from in China, and my wife just says “very nice”, as she cannot relate. Believe me, she can relate a lot more to Paris than to Beijing…(also because she speaks French).

30

Bringing back another topic, I wonder how it feels to know that during the third grade, I drew the ROC flag for my country. It was pasted upon the walls in the cafeteria. Within a few days it was ripped apart and town to shreds.

Some kid was taught to attack the flag. Now this was before 1989 and even I was told to say I was Chinese. I didn’t even care. You can try to twist this and say it was a TIer. But more likely it was…

During HS I didn’t even care about identity yet, and in a certain occasion I said I was Taiwanese because I was born from Taiwan. I was immediately shunned by various Chinese groups, labeled a, “race traitor”, as well as by people who are now clearly Pan Blue. The Chinese Nationalist students insisted that I should say I was born from China and that I didn’t have enough, “National Pride” and that I should retract my words. My first thought was, “Huh, I said something wrong about the United States?”

Its from their actions that I’ve become who I am today.

In contrast to other Asian American groups whom did not care about petty politics but about who I was as a person, not my political feelings.

Ironic as I can have Pan Blue friends and even very Pro China friends, but when they know about my attitudes, they get aggressive or mean.

Look I’ve been so nice to even have invited AC to one of my outings a few years back. He decided to insult bicycling rather than politely say no.

Of course I don’t identify with being Chinese. What benefit do I get from it? Instead I get attacked unless I do identify with it. Its quite disguisting. AC? Philbert? CcTang? We don’t go around insisting you’re Taiwanese, you don’t have to go insisting that we’re Chinese. Of course I don’t identify with you guys, you come here insulting us first.

31

Shrimp,

Like CSB you prevented me from enjoying video games on your defunct forum. Why would anyone want to bike ride with someone that ruined their childhood?

So you are telling me that you prevented my video gaming because you got your flag ripped down while you were in diapers.

Sounds like you need to stop the vicious cycle of hatred and bigotry against the Chinese.

32

Shrimp,

I’ve never met you, and I’m reasonably sure I’ve never touched any of your ROC drawings. I’m not going to apologize for anything I didn’t directly do, although I certainly think its regrettable these incidents led you to your belief system. That said, I also don’t think it’s remotely my mission to convince self-avowed Taiwanese of the glories of being Chinese. It is far too great a mission for me.

I’ll just worry about me and mine, and continue to hope that with time, prosperity, and wisdom… the Chinese will find a way towards unity and shared strength.

33

I think there is no reason to apologize to Shrimp over the incident because how can he prove it was the action of a Chinese Nationalist? How does he know it was not an attack by a Black, White, Hispanic, or Korean student?

What I find more interesting is that if the situation is true, that a student of PRC origin ripped apart your drawing of an ROC flag, why do you support a movement that doesn’t recognize the ROC flag at all.

Instead of being angered by the attack, fortifying your support of ROC and their symbolism. You are doing exactly what the attackers wanted you to do, feel ashamed of the ROC and their symbolism. Supporting a movement that undermines the ROC.

Making you hate your fellow ROC brethren that you perceive as being “too” Chinese.

34

Hi Shrimp. I work in an elementary school that has a beautiful patchwork quilt of the students’ heritage countries and the ROC flag is right up there with the rest. Also in a highschool I taught at is for me one of the most inspirational photos I’ve ever seen- the picture of the Chinese guy standing down the tank. AC, you need to get a little more love in your heart sir. I thought the comment about the white girl was funny since I’m a size 12- I would love to be a size 4!!!. I’ve had similar experiences with Chinese boyfriends and them asking me about past White boyfriends and the ‘size’ question. But they weren’t asking about dress size. And you are right- it is definitely better to tell a white lie before someone frrrrrreaks out about the truth. This is your cue, AC, to make a fat joke about me. :slight_smile: Come on son! I’m waiting for you to answer my PM to you about whether you saw the movie Crash yet. Also- you didn’t answer my question as to why you wanted to know it I had tattoes or not.

35

[quote=“ac_dropout”]Shrimp,

Like CSB you prevented me from enjoying video games on your defunct forum. Why would anyone want to bike ride with someone that ruined their childhood?[/quote]
AC, you were banned because of the racist comments you made against a member of that forum who is also here, and broke other rules like racist slurs, profane language, and excessive rudeness. Therefore you were suspended many times, including the games. The Forum wasn’t defunct, like I said before, many of us know each other now in person. We decided that your 30 posts a day (120 with everyone else), tagging with your other friends were a pointless charade and that suspending you 4 times didn’t stop you from coming back. Finally a good portion of your other posts were simply, “T a i d u Terrorist” and nothing else. We wanted you to write something constructive and hear a different point of view, well versed and backed up with sources.

I wasn’t in diapers in the third grade, nor did I say what you are insinuating. I believe I have said that you were suspended from the site (which includes the gaming section of the forum) because you made racist slurs about some White guy marrying a Taiwanese girl then your pals collectively stalked him online by posting links to his site and his child. Nor did we appreciate the cheap justification that by claiming the word “Chicomm” and “Chinese Communist” was racist and the excuse that it was what prompted you to go all out. If you would like, I could go back and restore the backup of that forum from 2-3 years ago for everyone to see. Your posts from that one “incident” garnered 14 complaints from people on the forum. Of course that was when you were ultimately and unceremoniously banned. Finally you spent all your time bashing the forum, accusing him or her of “treating you unfairly” and accused us of “suppressing freedom of speech” because as administrators we didn’t tolerate your cursing and aggressive behavior.

I really don’t know how you’re more civil on Forumosa considering you were never suspended here. But on that forum your posts were in fact terrible.

Coming from you? AC, you were very wrong and dirty against that person. You should have never said anything racist about that person and despite everything he acted rather civil in response. I understand you have strong feelings about interracial marriage, but that is no reason to have treated that man the way you did. Before you try to preach someone who really hates the Chinese Government, try to reform yourself. You never apologized for what you did back then.

36

im a product of an inter-racial marriage and i say my experience is/has been worthwhile to say the least. Lets have more of em (inter-racial marriages)

37

im a product of an inter-racial marriage and i say my experience is/has been worthwhile to say the least. Lets have more of em (inter-racial marriages)

38

Shrimp,

Can you even come up with a comprehensive reason why you hate the Chinese Government? For the most part they are doing a lot good for a lot of Chinese people on this planet.

39

He got rejected by a Chinese girl? But in all seriousness China is a totalitarian state with a legal system and quality of life that is shown on Red Corner starring Richard Gere

40

If I were running my own forum, I wouldn’t ban anyone or delete anything unless there was a safety issue, like posting someone’s real name/address, or leaving clues so that some deranged person could figure out that info for themselves. Besides that, I say have an ‘ignore’ feature like forumosa has and let everyone post whatever they want. But… I’m not running my own forum- it’s not a democracy here and the bosses make the rules. Beggars can’t be choosers.