Is the Blacklist real?

[Bassman]

@KaiwenLee

[quote=“Bassman”][quote]There certainly isn’t any national centralized database

You are wrong. It is run by the buxiban association and updated by the MOE.[/quote]

Sorry. Which buxiban association? And what site?

Teachers have no misperception on this, I run a buxiban and I know about this database.

I stand by my previous statement. I don’t know a single owner who has used, consulted, or put any stock in any blacklist. I still doubt they’re any serious impedement to finding another position.

Lee Kaiwen, Chiayi (Jiayi)[/quote]

Sorry, but the MOE stands by that site, it’s their site, and if you are on that list there is a high chance that you will not get another work permit. Buxiban bosses usually don’t need to look at the site, they don’t need to, if the MOE objects or checks the list then they don’t get a teacher. To be honest, most buxiban bosses couldn’t use a computer let alone check the list.

EDIT: I will P.M A clue, but not a link. Google really does help.

You can beat the blacklist though.

If you get to the site, look, it is posted all over the web anyway, if you know where to look, don’t post the link here.

Mod Lang,

Teachers are listed as having O hours because the MOE, when handling work permits, didn’t need to ask how many hours, they only asked how many English classrooms a school had. Now the CLA requires teaching hours to be stated.

[Bassman]

BTW, the site is not accurate. One of the teachers at our school is listed as being at a rival school. That’s not what our papers say.

[KaiwenLee]

@Bassman

If you get to the site, look, it is posted all over the web anyway, if you know where to look, don’t post the link here.

But it’s already been posted.

You know, I spent the better part of the evening trying to find folks I know in the list – myself, my friends, teachers I’ve known past and present, even the schools I’m familiar with. Nothing, nada, zip. Then it hit me:

This is a duan-chi bushiban list, and only a duan-chi bushiban list. I’m not even sure it’s particularly an English language duan-chi bushiban list as there are duan-chi bushibans for every conceivable academic subject, though it is to be assumed the vast majority of foreigners in the database are English teachers. But my own school is not a short-term bushiban, nor are the schools of any of my friends, or indeed any of the schools I have relationships with. Nor has any of the teachers I’ve known ever, to my knowledge, worked for a duan-chi bushiban. Which is why none of them shows up in this list.

This is not a comprehensive list of all English teachers in Taiwan, nor of all English language cram schools. If you have never passed through the doors of a duan-chi bushiban, then you will not show up in this list. Currently, in fact, the database (not the blacklist; it has only twelve names) contains information on 2679 foreigners, and I know with absolute certainty there are a hell of a lot more foreign teachers in Taiwan than that.

if the MOE objects or checks the list then they don’t get a teacher.

Of course, English teachers in Taiwan are now under the motherly gaze of the CLA, not the MOE. Does the MOE have any say over English teachers any more, in particular veto power over work permits?

Lee Kaiwen, Taiwan

[Spack]

[quote=“Bassman”]
If you get to the site, look, it is posted all over the web anyway, if you know where to look, don’t post the link here. [/quote]

Why not?

[Flicka]

For goodness sake, you can find the link to the site from my site or on Scotter Summer’s weblog (search: blacklist).

Bassman, honestly, why are we not allowed to post the link here? You’ve said this in other threads as well. I think the blacklist is an absolute violation of people’s privacy and human rights. Perhaps you’d like to PM me and I’ll take it into consideration. I hope there is a good reason.

I’ve already stated the site is not accurate–leading me to believe Bassman has hit the ignore button on me (is that feature still around?) and wasn’t able to see that I already stated it, because his “BTW, the site is not accurate” repeats what I’ve said.

[Bassman]

[quote=“Flicka”]For goodness sake, you can find the link to the site from my site or on Scotter Summer’s weblog (search: blacklist).

Bassman, honestly, why are we not allowed to post the link here? You’ve said this in other threads as well. I think the blacklist is an absolute violation of people’s privacy and human rights. Perhaps you’d like to PM me and I’ll take it into consideration. I hope there is a good reason.

I’ve already stated the site is not accurate–leading me to believe Bassman has hit the ignore button on me (is that feature still around?) and wasn’t able to see that I already stated it, because his “BTW, the site is not accurate” repeats what I’ve said.[/quote]

1. We are not talking about just the blacklist. The link posted in this thread is not the source of the blacklist and is not the complete site. It is just a blacklist.

2. The list of every teacher in Taiwan registered at “any” buxiban is there. All registered buxiban’s are called short term buxibans. If their teachers are not listed then they are either a) a University or private high school etc. b) difficult to find.

You must search many different ways in order to find people. I have searched for my teachers using their names and came up with nothing but by searching another way I found them. It is a very poor site.

The fact that the site violates peoples rights by displaying personal information is good enough reason for me not to want to give this information to anyone with a computer.

Edit… Taken out to send as P.M.
Kaiwen,

The CLA controls work permits and that is a fact but they work together with the MOE, teachers who are given new work permits appear on the same site. How do I know, I have a new teacher who’s name is up there, that’s why.

The number of foreign teachers in Taiwan is the number of “legal” foreign teachers at buxibans. This excludes univerisities.

[KaiwenLee]

@Bassman

The link posted in this thread is not the source of the blacklist and is not the complete site. It is just a blacklist.

It’s not. The site I’ve been looking at contains a lot more than just a blacklist. There was a second link posted in this thread directly to a blacklist – which contains a minuscule twelve names – but the other links links to a much larger database.

All registered buxiban’s are called short term buxibans.

My school is not a duan-chi bushiban, nor most of the bushibans I know. If somebody is calling everybody a duan-chi bushiban, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. (That’s a generic “he”, by the way, not intended to point fingers, except perhaps at government officials, who at times particularly seem to not know what they’re talking about.)

You must search many different ways in order to find people. I have searched for my teachers using their names and came up with nothing but by searching another way I found them. It is a very poor site.

Two points:

First, it’s child’s play – I won’t say how here, out of respect for your position – to dump out a full list of all teachers or bushibans in the list, by city, by county, or for the entire country. Teachers come up alphabetically (though sometimes by first name, rather than last), so you can just page through the resulting list.

Second: If the list is A) so difficult to find, B) so difficult to use (even searching on my own passport number didn’t pull me up and I’ve been in Taiwan for years), and C) so inaccurate, then what the hell good is it as a blacklist?

The fact that the site violates peoples rights by displaying personal information is good enough reason for me not to want to give this information to anyone with a computer.

I have some sympathy for your view, Bassman, and understand your desire to try to minimize access to the thing. On the other hand, it seems to be accomplishing that pretty well all on its own. I still have yet to find anybody, or any school, I know in the list.

UPDATE: I did finally find one person and two bushibans I know in the list. But that’s it. And it took me nearly seven hours. This has got to be one of the most useless sites I’ve ever run across.

The CLA controls work permits and that is a fact but they work together with the MOE, teachers who are given new work permits appear on the same site.

I agree the list seems to be current. But saying teachers with new work permits show up in the MOE list is not at all the same as saying the MOE has any veto power over new work permits. It may be the MOE makes recommendations to the CLA; it may be the MOE simply maintains the the list as a service, and the CLA doesn’t ask the MOE’s permission before issuing work permits. We have no way of knowing. And again, with only twelve names, out of nearly three thousand, on their blacklist, it doesn’t seem to be terribly effective or worrisome from that angle.

The number of foreign teachers in Taiwan is the number of “legal” foreign teachers at buxibans. This excludes univerisities.

Then I revise my statement. I’m certain there are far more than 2769 legal foreign English teachers in Taiwan. There are probably more than that in Taipei alone.

Lee Kaiwen, Chiayi

[maoman]

@KaiwenLee

[quote=“Bassman”]All registered buxiban’s are called short term buxibans.

Leads me to wonder if you know what a duan-chi buxiban is. My school is not a duan-chi buxiban, nor do I know anyone who operates a duan-chi buxiban. All buxibans are not called duan-chi buxibans. Or, if somebody is calling everybody a duan-chi buxiban, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. (That’s a generic “he”, by the way, not intended to point fingers, except perhaps at government officials, who at times particularly seem to not know what they’re talking about.)
[/quote]
FYI, my buxiban is a duanqi buxiban. I know this for a fact, because I registered it as such. In fact, all of the legal buxibans that I know of are registered as duanqi buxibans.

[Bassman]

@KaiwenLee

[quote=“Bassman”]The link posted in this thread is not the source of the blacklist and is not the complete site. It is just a blacklist.

It’s not. The site I’ve been looking at contains a lot more than just a blacklist. There was a second link posted in this thread directly to a blacklist – which contains a minuscule twelve names – but the other links links to a much larger database.

All registered buxiban’s are called short term buxibans.

Leads me to wonder if you know what a duan-chi buxiban is. My school is not a duan-chi buxiban, nor do I know anyone who operates a duan-chi buxiban. All buxibans are not called duan-chi buxibans. Or, if somebody is calling everybody a duan-chi buxiban, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. (That’s a generic “he”, by the way, not intended to point fingers, except perhaps at government officials, who at times particularly seem to not know what they’re talking about.)

You must search many different ways in order to find people. I have searched for my teachers using their names and came up with nothing but by searching another way I found them. It is a very poor site.

Two points:

First, it’s child’s play – I won’t say how here, out of respect for your position – to dump out a full list of all teachers or buxibans in the list, by city, by county, or for the entire country. Teachers come up alphabetically, so you can just page through the resulting list.

Second: If the list is A) so difficult to find, B) so difficult to use (even searching on my own passport number didn’t pull me up and I’ve been in Taiwan for years), and C) so inaccurate, then what the hell good is it as a blacklist?

The fact that the site violates peoples rights by displaying personal information is good enough reason for me not to want to give this information to anyone with a computer.

I have some sympathy for your view, Bassman, and understand your desire to try to minimize access to the thing. On the other hand, it seems to be accomplishing that pretty well all on its own. I still have yet to find anybody, or any school, I know in the list. I’ve even tried the big chain schools, like Hess or Jordan or Giraffe. I haven’t found a one. They’re all conspicuous by their absence. Why? Because they’re not duan-chi buxibans.

The CLA controls work permits and that is a fact but they work together with the MOE, teachers who are given new work permits appear on the same site.

I agree the list seems to be current. But saying teachers with new work permits show up in the MOE list is not at all the same as saying the MOE has any veto power over new work permits. It may be the MOE makes recommendations to the CLA; it may be the MOE simply maintains the the list as a service, and the CLA doesn’t ask the MOE’s permission before issuing work permits. We have no way of knowing. And again, with only twelve names, out of nearly three thousand, on their blacklist, it doesn’t seem to be terribly effective or worrisome from that angle.

The number of foreign teachers in Taiwan is the number of “legal” foreign teachers at buxibans. This excludes univerisities.

Then I revise my statement. I’m certain there are far more than 2769 legal foreign English teachers in Taiwan. There are probably more than that in Taipei alone.

Lee Kaiwen, Chiayi (Jiayi)[/quote]

Hello there, Hess, Jordan, and Giraffe are all short-term buxibans. That is a FACT. They are listed on the site and I can find them. You must know the registered name of the buxiban and NOT the name that is on the sign outside. My schools registered name and “Mark’s English” don’t match. If you look for "Ma Ke mei yu " you won’t find it.
Each school in each county can register a school name ONLY once. Therefore all the big schools are listed under other names.

If you are a buxiban you only register students for periods of time determined by the parents and school, that may be a three month set of classes or six months. At the most a year. A buxiban is not a school and cannot register students for continual years like an elementary school which would expect most of the students to be there for many years. A buxiban does not operate this way, although in reality it may.

A kindergarten in not a buxiban, that is a KINDERGARTEN, and a kindergarten may not have foreign teachers and may not offer a work permit or ARC. Therefore they are also NOT buxibans.

All the links posted that have other information besides the blacklist alternate addresses for the main site. This site does not just contain information on foreign English teachers but computer teachers and the like too.

The fact that buxibans are not operating as duan-chi buxibans puts them outside the regulations that govern the operation of buxibans. Well, to a point as the regulations are very easy to find loopholes in.

Karen, listen up, it is NOT childs play when the MOE spells names wrong and places teachers in the wrong school etc. That is a FACT. 2. Some of my teachers will NOT be found on the alphabetical list, to find them you MUST search for my schools name. That and that alone will find some teachers. I know because I have looked more than once. Try searching by middle name, last name and first name too. Sometimes that doesn’t even work. The search function is faulty and you need to be flexible.

They remove names from the public database on a regular basis to keep banned teachers names current.

The CLA and the MOE work closer than you’d like to believe on work permits. The final decision belongs to the CLA but they do work very closely, I know because we talked with them.

There most certainly would not be close to 3000 illegal teachers in Taipei alone. That is a HUGE stretch.

I suggest that you do some research before you post.

[KaiwenLee]

There most certainly would not be close to 3000 illegal teachers in Taipei alone. That is a HUGE stretch.

I said legal, not illegal, teachers. And it was my guess, as I already indicated. But Taipei was not my point. Taiwan was. And I am certain there are more than three thousand legal teachers in Taiwan.

Now, if you sometimes have to search by first name, sometimes last, sometimes middle, sometimes by passport number, sometimes by school name – and a registered name which no one even knows, to boot; if teachers are often not even listed under the correct school, and often don’t come up at all, and if the vast majority of bushiban owners and operators don’t know about the list, and wouldn’t know how to use it anyway, then what the hell good is this site as a blacklist?

And this was my original point: there is no useful, centralized blacklist of English teachers in Taiwan that the vast majority of English teachers need to lose any sleep over. This one certainly doesn’t seem to be it.

Lee Kaiwen, Chiayi

[Bassman]

@KaiwenLee

I said legal, not illegal, teachers. And it was my guess, as I already indicated. But Taipei was not my point. Taiwan was. And I am certain there are more than three thousand legal teachers in Taiwan.

ok, if you include universities and those with open work permits etc (the legality of this is debateable), then perhaps there would be a whole lot more. However, so many of the “teachers” that you see are students or working illegally and therefore don’t count. For the most part the list is correct.

Now, if you sometimes have to search by first name, sometimes last, sometimes middle, sometimes by passport number, sometimes by school name – and a registered name which no one even knows, to boot; if teachers are often not even listed under the correct school, and often don’t come up at all, and if the vast majority of buxiban owners and operators don’t know about the list, and wouldn’t know how to use it anyway, then what the hell good is this site as a blacklist?

This is the beauty of the authorities in Taiwan

And this was my original point: there is no useful, centralized blacklist of English teachers in Taiwan that the vast majority of English teachers need to lose any sleep over. This one certainly doesn’t seem to be it.

This has not proven your point at all. It has shown you that they have a poorly managed website. It does show that there is a list. If your name is on the blacklist there is a good chance that you will not get another work permit. There is a slight outside chance that you may get another permit but you’d have to fight for it.

So, we have a blacklist and I am sure that their internal management system is much better than the website.

[Flicka]

How can I get on the list? What do I have to do? I think that would be a real hoot.

[KaiwenLee]

@Bassman

ok, if you include universities and those with open work permits etc (the legality of this is debateable), then perhaps there would be a whole lot more. However, so many of the “teachers” that you see are students or working illegally and therefore don’t count. For the most part the list is correct.

“For the most part”: I have no idea. I know there are a lot of teachers who are not working at duan-chi bushibans, and I know there are a lot of cram schools which are not registered as duan-chi bushibans. My own is one. We registered many years ago as a daycare that just happened to also teach English. We haven’t operated as a daycare in years, and in fact now operate almost indistinguishably from any other after-hours English cram school. However, we are still registered as a daycare. And many, if not most, of the bushibans I have relationships with are in similar situations (this is not a representative sampling, I admit. My associations stem largely from our prior activities as a daycare).

What percentage of English schools in Taiwan are or are not registered as duan-chi bushibans, I doubt anyone knows. it is no secret that a lot – quite possibly most – of the English instruction in Taiwan is illegal in one way or another. And thus my point that a) not all bushibans are duan-chi, and b) this is only a duan-chi bushiban list. The number of cram schools – and hence the number of foreign teachers – not covered by this list in not insubstantial by any means. What percentage is it? Who knows?

“the legality of this is debateable”: Whether this situation corresponds to regulations coming out of Taipei is, to my mind irrelevant. The only thing that is important, as far as I’m concerned, is whether it is satisfactory to the officials I do deal with regularly. They are fully aware of my school and how it operates. In fact, I play golf with one local MOE official monthly. They’ve never indicated that my registration is a problem. Quite the contrary, I suspect if I tried to change it, they would mumble something akin to tai mafan and urge me to reconsider.

What is “legal” or not in Taiwan depends to my mind far more on which official you ask than it does on Taipei decretals. As my day-to-day existence here depends far more on the local agencies than it does on Taipei bureaucrats, as far as I’m concerned I’m legal because the guys in Chiayi say I’m legal.

This has not proven your point at all. It has shown you that they have a poorly managed website. It does show that there is a list.

We’ll probably have to agree to disagree on this point. There is not just a list, there are many lists. All of them are incomplete; all of them are full of errors; none of them (with this exception) is kept updated, and none of them, AFAIC, should be of any consequence to a teacher dropping his CV off at bushibans looking for that next teaching position. I never consult any blacklists in my hiring decisions, nor does anyone I know. And that is what I assumed the original inquirer wanted to know.

So, we have a blacklist and I am sure that their internal management system is much better than the website.

Based on my past experience in IT and network support, I’d say probably not; companies generally don’t pay to support two separate interfaces to the same database. But, as neither you nor I works in the MOE, neither of us is in a position to do anything except speculate on this point.

Lee Kaiwen, Chiayi

[Bassman]

@KaiwenLee

[“For the most part”: I have no idea.

Something I can agree with.

I know there are a lot of teachers who are not working at duan-chi buxibans,

This is also true and that has already been stated in this thread.

and I know there are a lot of cram schools which are not registered as duan-chi buxibans. My own is one.

Then your cram school is illegal. A cram school IS a buxiban, registered or not.

We registered many years ago as a daycare that just happened to also teach English.

At that time your school was illegal…

We haven’t operated as a daycare in years, and in fact now operate almost indistinguishably from any other after-hours English cram school. However, we are still registered as a daycare.

…and your school still continues to be illegal. Therefore there is no way that your school supplied your work permit and ARC without a buxiban (registered) helping out. Therefore, if you are just the average run of the mill foreigner, you too are illegal.

And many, if not most, of the buxibans I have relationships with are in similar situations (this is not a representative sampling, I admit. My associations stem largely from our prior activities as a daycare).

They are also illegal if the situations are similar and therefore the teachers are also involved in illegal activities, with or without their knowledge.

What percentage of English schools in Taiwan are or are not registered as duan-chi buxibans, I doubt anyone knows. it is no secret that a lot – quite possibly most – of the English instruction in Taiwan is illegal in one way or another.

The exact percentage, I am sure someone knows, maybe the Almighty.

Ok, you’re right about it not being a secret about illegal teaching in Taiwan.

And thus my point that a) not all buxibans are duan-chi, and b) this is only a duan-chi buxiban list. The number of cram schools – and hence the number of foreign teachers – not covered by this list in not insubstantial by any means. What percentage is it? Who knows?

I am not entirely sure that you actually have a point at all. All buxibans are “duan-chi buxibans”. The only thing that makes them different is legal and illegal. If you are a nursery school operating with foreign teachers then you are not a buxiban, you are a nursery school operating classes that you shouldn’t have. If you open a buxiban and stop operating a nursery school you then become an illegal duanchi buxiban.
You cannot change the terminology and call it a cram school, it is still a buxiban. Any teacher that is teaching in a Nursery school and has an ARC will have one with a registered buxiban and therefore be on the list. If the teacher doesn’t have a work permit and ARC they won’t be on list, they are illegal and who gives a rats ass if they are here or not. Every other teacher who is on the list plays by the rules, as lax as they are, and gets their papers in order.

Oh, lets not forget the Romanian English teachers who get sponsored by companies and then farmed out to teach English. This is another form of deception.

“the legality of this is debateable”: Whether this situation corresponds to regulations coming out of Taipei is, to my mind irrelevant. The only thing that is important, as far as I’m concerned, is whether it is satisfactory to the officials I do deal with regularly. They are fully aware of my school and how it operates. In fact, I play golf with one local MOE official monthly. They’ve never indicated that my registration is a problem. Quite the contrary, I suspect if I tried to change it, they would mumble something akin to tai mafan and urge me to reconsider.

Hey, the only thing they can do is send your foreign teacher home and then you’ll get a new one right?

Yes, we all know the situation with guanxi, it works for many of us. This doesn’t change the reality of the situation.

You could always try to change, but you wouldn’t would you and who could blame you. To be honest, if I were in your position I wouldn’t change I thing either. If it’s working for you don’t change it.

What is “legal” or not in Taiwan depends to my mind far more on which official you ask than it does on Taipei decretals. As my day-to-day existence here depends far more on the local agencies than it does on Taipei bureaucrats, as far as I’m concerned I’m legal because the guys in Chiayi (Jiayi) say I’m legal.

You are not legal. They just turn a blind eye is all. That is a beautiful thing while it continues to work. Expect some changes over the next year or so though if your signs are not up to code.

This has not proven your point at all. It has shown you that they have a poorly managed website. It does show that there is a list.

We’ll probably have to agree to disagree on this point. There is not just a list, there are many lists. All of them are incomplete; all of them are full of errors; none of them (with this exception) is kept updated, and none of them, AFAIC, should be of any consequence to a teacher dropping his CV off at buxibans looking for that next teaching position. I never consult any blacklists in my hiring decisions, nor does anyone I know. And that is what I assumed the original inquirer wanted to know.

Ok, we can agree on the part about being incomplete and everything else apart from the fact that a blacklist could be of consequence to a foreign teacher. If you are on the list your application may be declined and there is nothing your local MOE friends could do about it.[/quote]

So, we have a blacklist and I am sure that their internal management system is much better than the website.

[quote]Based on my past experience in IT and network support, I’d say probably not; companies generally don’t pay to support two separate interfaces to the same database. But, as neither you nor I works in the MOE, neither of us is in a position to do anything except speculate on this point.

Lee Kaiwen, Chiayi (Jiayi)[/quote]

Agreed.

So, there you have it.

[Bassman]

UPDATE: I did finally find one person and two buxibans I know in the list. But that’s it. And it took me nearly seven hours. This has got to be one of the most useless sites I’ve ever run across.

7 hours! You do have opposable thumbs, right? Just kidding, I hope you can take the ribbing.

You should never have to spend 7 hours on that site, one hour would be too long.

[KaiwenLee]

@Bassman

[quote]And thus my point that a) not all buxibans are duan-chi, and b) this is only a duan-chi buxiban list.

All buxibans are “duan-chi buxibans”.[/quote]

Nitpicking. Allow me to rephrase: All bushibans are not registered bushibans for the purposes of this list. Whether all bushibans operate as duan-chi bushibans was never the point under discussion. Only registered duan-chi bushibans appear in this list. Which means there are a lot of bushibans which don’t.

You cannot change the terminology and call it a cram school, it is still a buxiban.

Hmm? In my vocabulary cram school and bushiban are interchangeable.

If the teacher doesn’t have a work permit and ARC they won’t be on list.

Allow me to introduce you to a teacher with WP and ARC who is not on the list: me.

Yes, we all know the situation with guanxi, it works for many of us. This doesn’t change the reality of the situation.

As far as I’m concerned, quanxi is the reality of the situation. What good does it do me to piss off the local officials trying to force compliance with a set of rules they’ve never enforced? All I would accomplish is to turn myself into a square peg in a world full of round holes.

If it’s working for you don’t change it.

To be honest, I would rather be in compliance with the regulations coming out of Taipei and have in fact raised the issue once or twice. But as all it seems to do is annoy the folks I deal with regularly, there doesn’t seem to be any business sense in it.

I’ve been in Taiwan long enough now to begin to understand their view: like the weather in Seattle, if you don’t like the rules in Taiwan, wait ten minutes and they’ll change. I myself can hardly recall two years in a row in which the procedures and/or regulations have been the same.

If your local administrators are the types who insist on compliance, it would well serve you to be in compliance. My locals like round pegs, which means being a round peg gets things done. The local officials make things as easy as possible for me. It would be – well, stupid – for me to return the favor by becoming a thorn in their sides.

Expect some changes over the next year or so though if your signs are not up to code.

Forgive me, and maybe I’m just too jaded, but my first reaction is “I’ve heard that before.” You may be right, and if being a round peg become a hindrance to my business, I’ll be in the face of my locals. So far, it’s been the opposite.

we can agree on … everything … apart from the fact that a blacklist could be of consequence to a foreign teacher. If you are on the list your application may be declined and there is nothing your local MOE friends could do about it.

From what I can see, the blacklisted teachers – all twelve of them – are there for all the usual reasons. One lady hadn’t shown up to work three days in a row. Another, mentioned in a scrolling marquee, had been convicted of child molestation. Etc. etc.

So maybe we have a difference in terminology. To me, “blacklisting” means an owner with a grudge trying to prevent a teacher getting a position. The blacklist at this site is simply all the usual reasons for not getting a new work permit, or losing your current one. Don’t show up for work – break a law – leave your job. All things every teacher should already know. In effect, it’s simply a list of teachers who have, for the usual reasons, already been denied a WP, or had theirs revoked.

Assuming the teacher hasn’t done any of these things, I still don’t see that this list is anything for him to worry about.

Lee Kaiwen, Chiayi

[Bassman]

So, there is a centralized blacklist, or should we call it a list of teachers who broke their contracts and won’t get another permit?

Originally you stated that there isn’t a blacklist, but there is.

Not all buxibans are duanchi buxibans - rubbish. If you are not operating as one then you are not one. It is ridiculous to think that way. It’s like saying that if I live in a garage then I must be a car.

Nitpicking, perhaps, but only to get you to the conclusions that you are slowly coming to which are far away from your original statements.

If you have a WP and ARC for teaching English then you will be on the list. Perhaps you have an OWP and ARC or the like. Your school should not be able to get you a work permit and ARC, so you must get it from somewhere else. If you got it through some shady deals in Chayi then I would say goodluck with the CLA and your next renewal. Maybe you’ll get it.

Other blacklists also exist, or so I hear, for major cities. These lists are kept by networks of buxiban bosses and are far more serious than the MOE list as they are kept between bosses and not public.

Blacklists exist but I don’t consult them either, heck, you can get more information by using google to check a name. Point is “can it hinder you”? Yes. Will it hinder you if you are on the list? Maybe.

Please define your interpretation of a buxiban that is not operating as a duanchi buxiban.

Also define “teacher” in regard to those who have an ARC for teaching and would not be on the list because they are not working for a duanchi buxiban. Exclude Universities and elementary to high schools. Then tell us how they have a legal WP for teaching and their ARC.

[system]

The links don’t work anymore. I guess they moved them since 2003. Does anyone have the updated links? If you follow this link -

ap4.kh.edu.tw/afterschool/englis … n_list.jsp

It shows only 19 foreign teachers in Taiwan. So obviously it’s not working.

[ziggy_stardust]

this link also doesn’t seem to work. There are no names on the list, and 15 seems a small number. Any other links to the blacklist?

[guest]

This one works, it isn’t a blacklist but it is supposed to be a database (for lack of a better word) of FTs in Taiwan

ap4.kh.edu.tw/afterschool/englis … n_form.jsp