So I came out of my Chinese class tonight to see a grown man punching and kicking a small boy of about 4. He was really laying in to him. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing, he was repeatedly punching and kicking him. I went over and shouted that it wasn’t right that his son is only a small boy. He just looked at me and kicked him again.
After the man had dragged the poor kiddie down the street in to a house, I was pretty distraught. A woman came to see why I was crying. When I told her what happened, she said ‘So you don’t know him then? So why are you upset?’ I tried to explain that I was upset for that poor kiddie, having to live every day with that monster. She just didn’t get it. She took me inside to see her ‘leader’ a Buddist nun, who spoke English.
The nun told me that the kid had been inside and had hit another kid, so that’s why the father was beating him. So it’s ok. What??? I couldn’t believe my ears, she told me the father always does this, because the kid is so naughty. I tried to tell her that maybe there was another way that she could show the father. She just looked at me and asked where I came from. When I told her England, she said ‘oh thats why, all your children are princesses and princes’, has she met any English kids recently? She continued to patrionise me in that you just don’t understand our culture bollocks and told me to go home and pray for the kid. I thought the Buddists had a non violence policy?Rather than it’s ok if we think they deserve it policy.
This is by far not the first time, I have seen, that some Taiwanese have failed to get the feeling of empathy. It seems if it’s not their immediate family or friends then why get involved. Road traffic accident, drive on by. Someone kicking a dog, well it’s not your dog so why bother. Someone battering a kid, yeah we know, he always does it.
In short am I just having a bad day and seeing the negative or is there truley no compassion on this island?
The right (and even responsibility) of a parent to physically beat a child is indeed part of the culture. It seems to be fading out in the face of modernization, but “spare the rod, spoil the child” from the Bible is fairly well ingrained into the culture. Not that all parents act that way, but few will see it as a bad thing. They feel that if a little beating doesn’t solve a behavior problem, maybe a big one will.
There are references in Classical Chinese literature to this sort of behavior. It generally condones the act. What you see as a lack of compassion is viewed as a parent performing their role responsibly. Again, the newer generation seems to be moving away from this way of thinking, but this is a very common view among elderly people here.
I’m afraid your desire to intervene will come to no good. The only hope you have of making a difference in such a case would really be with people here who know and respect you. If they respect you they may think on what you say.
You’re having a bad day. There is compassion. I’ve been helped out by total strangers when lost, needing to be scraped off the pavement, or feeling the distance from home.
But I know where you’re coming from. A while back I was immediately behind some woman slapping her cranky 2 year old in line at McDonalds. REALLY slapping the kid around. Which made the kid cry louder, mom got more angry, more violent… I was totally shocked and enraged. I also kept telling myself, “It’s not my country. It’s not my country,” while I looked to the Taiwanese to step in. They didn’t. The girl behind the counter was horrified, but what could she do?
As the woman grabbed her take-out bag and twisted the kid around with a rough grasp, I stepped forward to take her place… and casually gave her such a shot with my elbow that she spun and nearly landed on her ass. Her angry look had to travel a long ways up to catch my eyes. When she caught my eyes, I said, “Sorry. Hurts when you’re smaller, doesn’t it?” She scurried out. I didn’t know how to feel about it. Poor kid. Stupid woman. Different culture. And there I was–asshole–striking a woman half my size. Then the counter-girl flashed me such a joyful, pleased smile that I decided not to give myself too hard a time over it.
But please, don’t follow that example.
A couple days ago on the train an elderly Taiwanese man did a far better job than I. A baby was crying in his grandmother’s lap, and getting slapped for it. He simply took the bottle from the granny, cooed a bit at the kid, talked smoothingly, and the kid quieted. Said a few quiet words to granny and returned to his seat. A useful lesson, for me and the granny.
Do what you can, but remember it’s not your country, and more maybe be going on than you know. Don’t let that be an excuse for not doing what you must.
Sorry, wish I could offer something more useful. I hope someone has something more enlightening and useful to contribute.
Honestly, if I were to see something like that when I was 18 and never left home (TW)…I probably will feel extremely uncomfortable and scared to say something because of the taught belief never to interfere with other people’s family business. Before you know it, the whole thing would be over and I would be ridden with guilt of not helping that child.
Today more than likely I would go up and say something to de-escalate the situation, no matter where I am. Then again, I don’t know if it’s because I am older now, or because I have had the opportunities to examine the impact of culture rather being dictated by it. Probably both.
I do know one thing: no parent likes to be told how to treat their child, regardless of culture. It’s an art to successfully intervene. Families, they tend to be messy. Potent, and messy.
I remember seeing a similar incident in Wal-Mart in the US. Overweight woman being abusive of kids in the store. People all around turned to stare at her, and she grabbed her kid and moved on. It doesn’t just happen in Taiwan.
Differences in culture between Taiwan and the US is not that we don’t have abusive people here and there, but that society in the US very strongly condemns it and people are taught it is their duty to intervene on the child’s behalf even if it isn’t someone we know. Taiwan culture, on the other hand, does not condemn (but I won’t go so far as to say approves of) such behavior from parents, and people are taught to not interfere with another person’s family-- right or wrong.
There is certainly compassion in Taiwan, but what is appropriate to do is different.
I’m prone to moods and I was in a bad one a few days ago when I saw a woman drop her shopping bag on the ground so she could slap her kid. It was eggs in the bag for sure and maybe a plastic bottle of juice or something. I know because I punted the whole works half way across the street.
Summer 2004 I worked in a mentally handicapped day care in China. Quite often one of the teachers would beat or twist the arm of a kid that wouldn’t act ‘right’. I saw her drop a kid butt first on concrete to get a point a cross. Repeatedly slap a girl’s hand with a wooden handle to teach her not to hit.
The final straw came when a kid urinated on the ground. Her assistant put the kid in a head lock. I just watched but then the woman made the kid do wheelbarrows. When he wouldn’t stop crying she twisted his arm against the joint at full pressure. Next thing I knew I was on top of her twisting her arm. I didn’t give a :grrr:.
I’ve seen teachers beat students at my school, and it’s against policy. But if the kid isn’t being supported by his/her parents then the teacher is going to continue. But if I ever see a kid being beat like you saw, I probably would step in. I rather take the beat down, than the kid. At least for the moment culture be darned.
[quote=“Jubom”]Honestly, if I were to see something like that when I was 18 and never left home (TW)…I probably will feel extremely uncomfortable and scared to say something because of the taught belief never to interfere with other people’s family business. Before you know it, the whole thing would be over and I would be ridden with guilt of not helping that child.
Today more than likely I would go up and say something to de-escalate the situation, no matter where I am. Then again, I don’t know if it’s because I am older now, or because I have had the opportunities to examine the impact of culture rather being dictated by it. Probably both.
I do know one thing: no parent likes to be told how to treat their child, regardless of culture. It’s an art to successfully intervene. Families, they tend to be messy. Potent, and messy.[/quote]
Excellent post. I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s not about culture; it’s about abusive parents and they exist everywhere. It’s how society in general deal with such things that is cultural and Taiwan, I believe, is changing in this regard.
If this same thing happened when I was a kid in England, a lot of people woulld have ignored it. Now people are more responsive, but there is still a very succesful child abuse line in England that exists because there are a lot of bad parents in England. Taiwan is going along the same road ie recognizing there is a problem, which, IMO, is a postive thing.
The fact that you’ve posted on this forum is a step in the right direction
Child abuse is really sad to witness, especially when I find out the parents have been abused themselves. When it’s transmitted multi-generationally, I really admire those who can break the cycle. Takes a lot of guts, and I hope to see that more and more…
Awareness is the first step. Can’t change it until you can name it. Me thinks.
Now that I’ve had a while to mull things over, I feel a little better that at least the nuns at the uni are aware of whats going on. And while I can appreciate that some things are the way they are due to cultural differences, I still have a hard time to believe no one wanted to help the poor kid, by talking to the father about alternative methods. I think if he his taking his kids to help out at the temple, then he respects the people there, and a word from them could really help. But the lady I spoke to condoned his behavour, even though the level of violence that he used was untrue, not slapping, but punching and kicking.
I guess things will take a while to change and that the Taiwanese are working on these issues, I just hope for the sake of kiddies like this over the island it’s sooner rather than later.
I’m dreading going back next week, I don’t want to be viewed as ‘that trouble making forigner’, but if I had my time again I guess I’d have to do the same thing, I just couldn’t have stood by and done nothing.
Perhaps here is where you might be able to make a difference. Perhaps speak with the lady again and ask her to help you understand. Tell her you want to explain how you view it, but then listen how she views and then how it fits with the Dharma. Would it be the act of an enlightened person to cause such harm? What will the affects be on the man’s karma?
Ask sincerely. The lady most likely won’t be convinced of your argument, but she may get to thinking on it and end up convincing herself.
[quote=“puiwaihin”][quote=“random”] Tell her you want to explain how you view it, but then listen how she views and then how it fits with the Dharma. Would it be the act of an enlightened person to cause such harm? What will the affects be on the man’s karma?
.[/quote][/quote]
She could explain that it is the boy’s Dharma. Being that he was abusive in a past life to his father in a different form. Or that the boy’s Dharma could be that he choose his parents to teach him abuse so that he would stop the cycle of abuse in the future or to teach him about abusing power.
Or you could do both the father and the nun a favor and kick and punch them around a bit. Remind them how it feels and tell them you’ll be around in case they need another reminder. They might become open up to the new psychology pretty quick.
[quote=“Namahottie”][quote=“puiwaihin”]Tell her you want to explain how you view it, but then listen how she views and then how it fits with the Dharma. Would it be the act of an enlightened person to cause such harm? What will the affects be on the man’s karma?
.[/quote]
She could explain that it is the boy’s Dharma. Being that he was abusive in a past life to his father in a different form. Or that the boy’s Dharma could be that he choose his parents to teach him abuse so that he would stop the cycle of abuse in the future or to teach him about abusing power.[/quote]
True, but then if she wants to help the father avoid further bad karma (Dharma is the the whole of truth) she could advise the father not to harm the kid. The fact that the kid is getting hit means that the kid had done something previously that would cause this to happen, but that would not excuse the father. The father would still receive the effects of his hitting his own son later on down the road.
If you harm someone, someone will harm you. But then that someone will in turn be harmed. Hence life is a cycle of pain and rebirth. But the goal of Buddhism is to escape the cycle, so I would think the lady monk should have some interest in intervention if put in this light.
Yeah, but then the nun and the father call out Grandmaster Kik Yer Buht who might enlighten you as to the superiority of The Middle Road.
“I’m bigger, so listen to me” doesn’t convince people that you’re right. Likely the father would get angry at being humiliated and then take out his anger on his son. And he’ll probably become racist towards foreigners, or more racist.
There aren’t many problems that can be solved with violence.
[quote=“puiwaihin”]
There aren’t many problems that can be solved with violence.[/quote]
While I complete agree, 1000% I also know how hardheaded humans can be and sometimes, just sometimes, they need a good kick in the arse. But even then it must be used with the upmost discretion. Yet, this rule would never apply to children. Only adults.
Why? When? How often? Where? How long? …
Take all the variables in account.
Let’s take 2 examples. Would you intervene?
-A five year old girl pees in his pants at Mac Donalds at 7:00 pm
Mom gets upset and beats the shit out of her.
-A 4 year old boy keeps on hitting his 2 year old little sister in a beetlenut shop. The father looks at it and encourages his son to hit harder.
We are usually encouraged not to hit children in the West. Some people in the East may believe hitting children is just a part of their education. I assume giving your kid a slap on the wrist/hand/cheek surely tells them they are doing something they are not supposed to do and could be considered a warning.
