Israel as a state headed for fascism

Politics International Politics
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In light of the most recent outrage, machine gunning protesters and aid groups in international waters, or as one Israeli commentator called them, people of conscience, it’s worth considering just where the “special race” is headed. And since it’s impossible to criticise anything about the “special race” without allegations of anti-Semitism, the only avenue really is to consider what some of it’s own members are saying. Interesting stuff.

[quote]A Special Place in Hell / Rebranding Israel as a state headed for fascism
SHEIKH JARRAH, East Jerusalem - No one knows fascism better than Israelis. They are schooled, drilled in the history, the mechanics, the horrendous potential of fascist regimes. Israelis know fascism when they see it. In others.

They might well have expected that when fascism began taking root here, it would arise at a time of a national leadership of galvanizing charisma and sweeping, powerfully orchestrated modes of action.

But that would have been much too obvious to deny. And it would take denial, inertia, selective memory, a sense that things – bad as they are - can go on like this indefinitely, for fascism to be able gain its foothold in a country founded in its very blood trail.

In fact, it has taken the most dysfunctional, the most rudderless government Israel has ever known, to make moderates uncomfortably aware of the countless but largely cosmetized ways in which the right in Israel and its supporters abroad have come to plant and nurture the seeds of fascism. [/quote]
The rationale for this accusation is abundantly laid out in the linked article, but in brief.

[quote]1. Losing a War. - We’ve lost two in the space of less than three years. Our targets, Hezbollah and Hamas, are better armed and entrenched than ever. Our strategic and diplomatic standing is in decline. Iran and Syria are ascendant. And there is abundant reason to suspect that the Gaza War, a major factor in the loss of our international standing, may have been altogether avoidable, the huge civilian death toll indefensible and unconscionable. This has, in turn, led to

  1. International quarantine, a sense of being scapegoated, and a search for an internal fifth column.

  2. A radical redefinition of positive values. - Look no further than the name of Jerusalem’s obscene Museum of Tolerance project.

  3. Olfactory fatigue - We have grown desensitized to the consequences of actively denying basic staples and construction supplies to 1.5 million people in Gaza, many of them still waiting to rebuild homes we destroyed.

We have grown inured to the appropriation of Palestinian-owned West Bank land, to abusive treatment of law-abiding Palestinians at checkpoints, to the ill-treatment and summary expulsion of foreign workers, to racist, anti-democratic and, yes, fascistic rulings by extreme rightist rabbis, especially some of those holding official positions in the West Bank.

  1. Fascism by rubber stamp. - "There are a million reasons why someone would be denied entry into Israel,” Interior Ministry spokeswoman Sabine Hadad said Monday, when asked about the ministry’s border policies in the wake of the Chomsky ban.

  2. The sense that despite everything, all is well. - There will be those who argue that the fact that I, or my Haaretz colleagues, are allowed to publish what we do, is proof that there is no fascism here, nor evidence of a police state.

The fact is that were we not Israeli Jews, and part of an establishment institution, any of us could find ourselves tossed out on the same pavement, and with the same lack of due process and due explanation, as Noam Chomsky.

7. The sense that there is a war on now, when there isn’t.

  1. Selective enforcement of court rulings. Routine defiance of same, in particular by radical settlers

  2. The 180-degree untruth that officials allow Israeli and Jerusalem Arabs to do what they want, while cracking down on their Jewish neighbors.

  3. Equating criticism of the government with favoring the destruction of Israel. [/quote] - A popular device among posters here, I note.

With friends like these, eh?

Canadian PM Harper and NetanYAHOO! yesterday. That has to be a very inviting best caption contest right there.

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After outrages like this, and the Lebanon attack of a couple years ago, there are people who still wonder why I’m critical of Israel.

3

HG you are arguing in the worst way possible about this. It’s one thing to accuse the state of Israel, or more specifically its current and some previous administrations, of racism, fascism, whatever, and it’s a whole other thing to talk about the Jewish race in general. Many - maybe most - of the Jewish population in the US and even in Europe are very much against the hardline tactics taken by the government of Israel over the past 20 years. And there is a substantial percentage in Israel who are also very much against this shit, too, but the orthodox/hasidic bloc and the military, always-flighting bloc generally overrule them.

Now there are a lot of people who are right to say “you can’t seem to criticize Israel without being called a racist”, but you are not one of them. You don’t get to call out a race of people for something that only a part of them believe and an even smaller part actually do something nasty about. You made some inappropriate comments in the previous attempt and were called out for it, and that has nothing to do with criticism of the Israeli government.

And to say this again: Jews are not a race, they are a religion or a culture.

EA I think the chief is responding to HG’s blanket potentially bigoted remarks and not the incident in particular, after all the chief has an affinity for Judaism what with his Jewish ex-wife and her pomeranian and all. But I’m sure he’ll have his own reply in due time.

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My father fled Nazi Germany as a child and my family was scattered around the globe as a result, so I empathize with the Jews who have been persecuted over the millennia, but I find Israel’s constant abuses abhorrent and feel it’s a cheap shot to refer to any criticism of their abusive policies as anti-semitic. That’s no better than W’s “you’re with us or you’re with the enemy.” Whatever. :unamused:

Israel’s latest incident would be shocking if it weren’t just more of the same. It would be nice if one of their allies could somehow talk some sense into them, or at least try. Clearly their path will only lead to more trouble.

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I’ve got no criticism for Jews generally, but I’ve got plenty for the government of Israel.

In the interest of fairness, I’d like to see fredsmith, Cheweycorns and/or the Chief admit that it’s not anti-semitic merely to criticize the government of Israel or its policies (and abuses).

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Last two I can see, good luck with the first one tho… I bet the chief’s real proud to be listed with that bunch eh heheheh!

Shit I dont even care if you want to criticize Judaism or any other religion, or make a reasoned argument about some of the negatives of Jewish culture or any other culture - some of the hasidic/orthodox stuff is eerily similar to literal Islam - I don’t even care if you wanna make some funny Jewish jokes, I got probably a couple dozen I could throw in the ring - but you don’t trashtalk Jews, and then claim you’re only talking about the abuses of the Israeli government and are being unfairly blamed for bigotry. When we discuss the wacko fundamentalist moslems, we still don’t call moslems in general “camel f**ers” or whatever (well not in this forum we don’t).

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You can criticize Israel without being an anti-Semite, but when you use racial epithets, people won’t take you seriously when you mention your intent is to have a serious conversation and they may view you as bigoted.

While I’ve criticized Mohammed in many posts and the anti-women stances of so many people/governments in the Arab world, I’ve also travelled extensively in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Indonesia, and Malaysia to know that secular Ataturk type of politicians exist and need Western support/engagement. I’m also aware that when Western Europeans were washing once a month, it was places with Muslim populations such as Cordoba in Spain that prized Jewish and Islamic scholarship that contributed to the preservation of many Greek texts etc.

Now that aside, I was quite interested in the Levy article that was posted in the previous thread that was temped and now removed. European anti-Semitism is still so prevalent within the corridors of power in Europe. You had the French ambassador to the UK calling the Israel a “piece of shit country.” You have major EU aid money going to organizations that want to see Jerusalem taken away as the capital of the Jewish people. You have a philosopher that in the past has lauded the IDF as being one of the most democratic armies in the word, but now suddenly has a change of heart?

Why the change of heart? Let’s be honest here.These just weren’t aid groups and protesters that were hurt on their way to Gaza. They were people that physically attacked, stabbed, and engaged in physical violence against a group of soldiers, thus provoking a response. The Turkish group that backed the flotillas was also involved in the LA Millennium bomb attempt. Video shows hysteria being whipped up against Israel on the ships prior to sailing with chanting of intifada songs about ‘Khaybar’–symbolizing the slaughter of Jews by Muslims in the 7th century and a rallying cry to kill Jews today–and threats of martyrdom. These were not peace activists and their goal was not humanitarian aid.

In other words, fair response by the IDF. :bravo:

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Hey look ! the weapons they found on the Mavi Marmara “to kill the Jews”

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[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]

Canadian PM Harper and NetanYAHOO! yesterday. That has to be a very inviting best caption contest right there.[/quote]

What about these statements for a caption:

  1. We wish both leaders well in their deliberations as leaders of two democratic countries enjoying independent judiciaries, open elections, a free press, and equality under the law for all citizens.
  2. As sister democracies, Canada and Israel have shared the sorrow of losing brave young men and women of the frontlines of the fight against terrorism.
  3. The world is a safer place today because of Canadian and Israeli determination to stand up for human rights and to combat the forces of radical Islam.

Or better yet, what about lauding Harper as a conviction leader as the Economist just did? Conviction is something that weak federal Liberal-based Axworthian foreign democracy was never able to put in practical terms. They belived in a dull, make every side happy type of appoach. :thumbsdown: I call it 'white picket fence" democracy because it was so unrealistic. Harper has made a few mistakes (e.g. abortion and G8) but his strengthening of relations with Israel after years of Liberal neglect and soft pro-Palestinian position (at least in aid funding), is something he should be thoroughly commended for :bravo: (despite the protestations of the university left and union people along with politicos on that side of the spectrum).

economist.com/world/americas … d=16231462

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Let me ask you this though: suppose the video is somehow not real, and that further evidence reveals the IDF firing on the protesters for merely protesting and yelling? Was their response way over the top then, and would Turkey’s current foaming at the mouth and the US and Europe’s complaints against them be more justified?

Also, I see the recommendations from the US and Europe for an independent investigation to be a really good thing for Israel: if the videos are true, they’ll get out in the press again and again and on TV, and people will know the protesters were violent. It will also be a great step towards Israel showing they’re willing to put themselves under the microscope, and it’ll show the hypocrisy of those other governments that don’t do the same (a la the US, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc).

It is a general expectation among Jews that Israel, and Jews in general, have to be a step up morally and ethically from others, so they can claim the moral high ground in this and other related issues, forever in perpetuity.

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[quote=“Chewycorns”][quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]

Canadian PM Harper and NetanYAHOO! yesterday. That has to be a very inviting best caption contest right there.[/quote]

What about these statements for a caption:

  1. We wish both leaders well in their deliberations as leaders of two democratic countries enjoying independent judiciaries, open elections, a free press, and equality under the law for all citizens.
  2. As sister democracies, Canada and Israel have shared the sorrow of losing brave young men and women of the frontlines of the fight against terrorism.
  3. The world is a safer place today because of Canadian and Israeli determination to stand up for human rights and to combat the forces of radical Islam.
    [/quote]
  4. How can Canada and Israel improve and expand upon the Canada-Israel Free Trade Agreement? Option Number 4,…
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[quote=“Chewycorns”]

Why the change of heart? Let’s be honest here.These just weren’t aid groups and protesters that were hurt on their way to Gaza. They were people that physically attacked, stabbed, and engaged in physical violence against a group of soldiers, thus provoking a response. The Turkish group that backed the flotillas was also involved in the LA Millennium bomb attempt. Video shows hysteria being whipped up against Israel on the ships prior to sailing with chanting of intifada songs about ‘Khaybar’–symbolizing the slaughter of Jews by Muslims in the 7th century and a rallying cry to kill Jews today–and threats of martyrdom. These were not peace activists and their goal was not humanitarian aid.

In other words, fair response by the IDF. :bravo:[/quote]

Saying it don’t make it so, I’m afraid. For a more balanced and cogent assessment try this:

ibishblog.com/blog/hibish/20 … g_so_badly

An excerpt:

“…It doesn’t even begin to explain how a large, well armed and very powerful navy was unable to seize control of an unarmed civilian ship without killing and injuring so many people.”

And the conclusion:

“Israel’s narrative of the flotilla attack is failing completely because it doesn’t make any sense, it doesn’t explain what happened, and it’s all taking place in the context of an information blackout. It couldn’t be less convincing. It’s adding insult to injury. It’s backfiring, big-time”

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Ok, a question: what the heck is THIS about? Hamas breaking into charity offices from which 80% of Gaza residents receive vital aid, and closing them down? Is this so they can then callously blame on Israel the worsening aid shortages (which they themselves exacerbated through this action) and foment further anti-Israeli violence? :eh: Or am I missing something? I have no agenda here – it’s just an innocent question.

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Oh, that’s easy. You want a job? You want some help with getting that reno on the house so you’re not sleeping 8 to a room? You gotta know who pulls the strings, who’s going to do you a favor… who you’re going to owe a few favors. It’s The Godfather writ large. Fatah does the same in their section. When they disagree, people fall out of windows.

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In one of the “disappeared” posts, a question was asked about videos taken during this event.
Some further stories are now surfacing regarding some videos taken on one of the ships and left behind by the “FPA - Foreign Press Association” which are being shown by the IDF.
Much to the chagrin of the “FPA.”

[quote]Journalists Stir Faux Controversy
i[/i]
“n a farcical sequel to the Mavi Marmara episode, journalists are complaining that Israel’s government is using videos they left behind on the ship to prove that the violence was started by pro-terrorist thugs.”

" The Foreign Press Association, which represents hundreds of journalists in Israel and the Palestinian territories, demanded Thursday that the military stop using the captured material without permission and identify the source of the video already released.

"The Foreign Press Association strongly condemns the use of photos and video material shot by foreign journalists, now being put out by the (military) spokesman's office as 'captured material'," the FPA said in a statement. It said the military was selectively using footage to back its claims that commandos opened fire only after being attacked.

The FPA didn’t explain, of course, in what way the IDF was being selective, or what footage may exist that shows the soldiers fired their weapons before they were attacked with knives, clubs, slingshots, etc. It is somewhat ironic that the only reason the journalists’ video is seeing the light of day is that the journalists are no longer in possession of it. I think it is safe to say that video showing the pro-terrorists for what they really are would otherwise have been suppressed.

Actually, it isn’t clear that any of the footage the IDF has released was shot by journalists. There are only a couple of possibilities; this one is the most dramatic. It shows the pro-terrorists attacking Israeli soldiers as they try to board the ship:"
(video)
“This one shows the pro-terrorists assembling their weapons in anticipation of the Israelis’ effort to board the ship. It was filmed by a couple of security cameras:”
(video)
videos at link[/quote]
]
Just more “journalists” in their never-ending quest for the truth…riiiiight…

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What needs to be done is to implement a REAL solution to prevent terrible events like this from ever happening again. This is an interesting suggestion I read by Amitakh Stanford. The only chance for peace is a two state solution. Both the Palestinian state and the Israeli state need to have a seaport and continuous borders. The neighbouring muslim nations should think about granting some land to the Palestinians. However, now we are getting to the crucial part, which is Jerusalem. Jerusalem needs to be either wholly in Palestine or wholly in Israel. A “Berlin Wall” will not work, there would be continued friction and threats of war. Both Israelis and Palestinians are religious, so they should be open to an unconventional solution:

flyingbuffaloes7.net/keluar9.html

O Jerusalem, take heed. The current situation in Israel is untenable; there is an unending conflict between the Palestinians and the Jews. Jewish inhabitants distrust the Palestinians, and vice versa. The age-old struggle between them has cost many lives, much hardship and untold sorrow. The conflict has generated tremendous anger, hatred and distrust – forcing them to live under a single umbrella has proven to be a formula for unending friction.

. . .

Jerusalem is a major sticking point in regard to a two-state solution, which affects not only the parties, but peace in the region. Both sides have long-standing reasons to be inflexible regarding the city. Both sides have long historical, cultural and religious reasons for their intransigence regarding Jerusalem. This has led many people to insist that the two-state solution have a shared Jerusalem. That is, severing Jerusalem in twain, part to one nation and part to another, or granting co-ownership of the city to both nation states. Are either of these proposals wise?

The twentieth century saw what happened when secular powers divided up Berlin into sections. The situation was so bellicose that the Berlin Wall was erected to section off the city. For decades, the Wall divided the people and caused tremendous misery until it was finally demolished.

The same mentality of erecting “Berlin Walls” is very active in modern-day Israel, as is seen by the walled-off sections of the West Bank. Fencing off sections of Berlin did not work, and it should not be encouraged in Jerusalem. Further, if there are national borders running through the city of Jerusalem, it will guarantee that there will be continued friction and bloodshed in the city.

It is understood that neither party wants to relinquish all rights to Jerusalem, but, in reality, to have lasting peace in the area, is there any other choice? I suggest that there is not. Many centuries of conflict support my position. Therefore, in my opinion, Jerusalem should either be wholly within the nation of Israel or wholly within the newly created Palestinian state. To accomplish this, one side or the other would necessarily have to relinquish Jerusalem voluntarily, if it is to be settled amicably. It should be realized that the side that vacates Jerusalem should be amply compensated for it when boundaries for the two newly-formed nation states are drawn.

Clearly, both parties’ claims to Jerusalem are heavily based on religious grounds. If neither side will voluntarily relinquish the city, then, after solemn prayers, a lot should be cast over which nation state will house Jerusalem. Those who sincerely believe in the Divine should accept that the lot will result in the Divine’s will being carried out.

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Why not have another Rome?

An international city, with enough environs to feed it, independent of both Israeli and Palestinian machinations, controlled by either a secular city council or a city council comprised of Jews, Christians and Muslims in equal measure?

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[quote=“ice raven”]Why not have another Rome?

An international city, with enough environs to feed it, independent of both Israeli and Palestinian machinations, controlled by either a secular city council or a city council comprised of Jews, Christians and Muslims in equal measure?[/quote]

It’s a luverly dream, ain’t it? :ponder:

19

Yes, but I don’t see any other realistic solution, other than levelling it so that there is no Jerusalem. If you give it to one side, the other side will always raise hell.

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[quote=“TheGingerMan”][quote=“ice raven”]Why not have another Rome?

An international city, with enough environs to feed it, independent of both Israeli and Palestinian machinations, controlled by either a secular city council or a city council comprised of Jews, Christians and Muslims in equal measure?[/quote]

It’s a luverly dream, ain’t it? :ponder:[/quote]
It’s also a Tom Clancy plot line. But then, so was flying airplanes, kamikaze-style, into landmark US buildings, and that came to pass.