Israel/Gaza conflict

The latest round of BS is once again out of control in the latest Gaza war with alleged disproportionate use of force, an absurd amount of innocent lives being lost, more UN investigations,more US taxpayer money being spent,ect. On the one side , Israel claims this is in retaliation to the three teenage murders but has yet to provide their evidence and Hamas has not claimed responsibility. And as these murders took place in the west bank why is it necessary to attack Gaza?

Is this war the fault of Hamas with their endless rocket attacks and a charter calling for the genocide of the Jewish population and who is merely hiding behind the slogan of human rights and freedom for the Palestinian people ?
Could this war be as the the Israeli’s claim or are there other motives involved as some have suggested ? A ploy to dismember the new Palestinian unity govt ? An ongoing campaign to create a Greater Israel ? Israel’s interest in gas fields off the coast of Gaza ?

With over 60 years of bad blood ,terror attacks on both sides, propaganda wars , claims of humanitarian abuses, alleged war crimes ,broken UN resolutions, broken and sabotaged peace negotiations and a lot of innocent people caught in the middle , obviously something has to change.

It’s never that one sided. I’m just beginning to study the Israel-Palestine conflict in depth, but it seems to me the blame is harder to place than most pro-Israel and pro-Palestine people would make it seem.

What just about every rational person can agree on is that the Palestinian people in Gaza are suffering because of it. Unfortunately, their leaders apparently want to fight just as much as the Israelis do. It’s basically just unending escalation being pushed forward by both sides.

Make no mistake, I find it all absolutely horrible. But I blame both sides. My understanding is that the Israeli teens were kidnapped in the West Bank as a retribution for Israeli encroachment. When they were found dead, extremist Israelis killed a Palestinian in retaliation. Hamas, which seems to be really out of touch with the reality of their military inferiority, then retaliated against that retaliation by launching rockets into Israel (none, as far as I can tell, killed anyone). Israel retaliated with air strikes to take out the Hamas militants (killing hundreds of civilians in the process). Hamas responded by sending some ground fighters into Israel (very ineffectually). Israel responded by sending ground troops into Gaza to seal off the tunnels that brought those militants in. Many more civilians died. A ceasefire was suggested. Hamas rejected it. The fighting continues.

What I gather from this: Israel has no qualms about sending its vastly superior forces in and racking up civilian casualties. Hamas clearly does not care about its own civilian casualties, either, and stupidly thinks it will achieve something other than a brutal Israeli response through its provocative actions.

On the one hand, you have the violent Hamas, which is engaged in constant conflict with Israel, and on the other, you have the cooperative West Bank, which is slowly having its land eroded away by settlers. It is truly a difficult situation to deal with, and nobody seems to be competent enough to do anything about it.

There’s no question at all that fighting, bombing, and killing is being done by both sides. However, I don’t think it’s that difficult to identify that the fighting being done by one side is clearly a lot more retaliatory then the other side. It’s hard for me to ever say that any violence is justified, but in this case it’s gotta be the next closest thing right? What are you supposed to do when confronted by a bully? Yeah I know, turn the other cheek right? But what if this bully doesn’t just want to beat you up and embarrass you in front of his friends. What if this bully wants you and your entire family dead so they can build a home on top of your grave site? A little different I think…

Thankfully, I’ve noticed a lot more people in the last few years are actually willing to speak out against the Israeli violence which it seems might be the only way it’s going to stop. Certainly the western powers don’t seem ready to do a damn thing about it, but hopefully if enough of their own people start speaking out against the attacks in Gaza, maybe there is some end in sight.

We are stuck in an endless cycle where basically any offensive action can be justified by a past wrong. At least now Israel is taking some heat in the international community but there is no chance of stopping until the UN (or somebody) puts a lot of pressure on Israel to stop the retaliation. In addition they need both sides to punish their extreme factions and not give them the opportunity to retaliate w/o orders. This is pretty unlikely to happen though.

I honestly don’t know if that’s about Hamas or Israel.

The situation to me is basically bringing a knife (Hamas) to a gun fight (Israel). I can’t realistically defend either party.

Hamas have to be told that there is no military solution, that there is only a political solution. As long as Hamas vows to fight to the death and kill every Israeli out there, Israel deserves the right to retaliate with everything they’ve got (which they simply are not doing: they are showing considerable restraint). Hamas, as pointed out above, appear to be willfully ignorant of their own military incompetence and weakness in the face of superior force from Israel. But what do they expect: this third intifada will likely end with Hamas further humiliated and having learnt nothing, just planting the seeds of number four. Not good for either side.

Get Hamas disbanded and allow a political solution to be found that isn’t founded on absolute rejection of Israel and Judaism. And bear in mind that it may be an ugly and unpalatable solution for the Palestinians: one that finds against them, and one that they won’t accept anyway.

back to square one.

[quote=“BrentGolf”][quote]

Thankfully, I’ve noticed a lot more people in the last few years are actually willing to speak out against the Israeli violence which it seems might be the only way it’s going to stop. Certainly the western powers don’t seem ready to do a damn thing about it, but hopefully if enough of their own people start speaking out against the attacks in Gaza, maybe there is some end in sight.[/quote][/quote]

Only the last few years? You must have just started following the conflict recently. People in the West have been condemning Israel since 1967. Even the UN once had a charter that equated Zionism with Racism (but it was later revoked). That was passed in 1975 and revoked in 1991.

So you must seriously have selective hearing.

The Hamas charter calls for the annihilation of worldwide Jewry, every last one of them, whether they be in Israel or Arkansas. Read that before even thinking about forming an opinion about this current conflict.

Again, I emphasize that I don’t think Israel is in the right. But basically everyone whose opinion counts considers Hamas to be a terrorist organization. Their charter calls for jihad and struggle against Jews. The fact that they basically want to kick the Jews out of Israel helps explain a lot about what’s going through the Israeli government’s psyche. Even though it’s not really the case, both sides seem to see the conflict is a life-or-death situation. Win, and your people survive for a bit longer. Lose, and you all die.

Israel certainly looks like the bad guy here, but it cannot end this crisis alone. Maturity is needed on both sides.

It is a very involved subject which requires an open mind and ability to let go of preconceived ideas and a lot of time. Start from the beginning.

         Relationship between the Jews and Arabs under the ottomans 
         Creation of the Nationalist Party  (Zionists) Who financed them
        The McMahon-Hussein Agreement 1915
        The Balfour Declaration of 1917.
         Formation of Arabs states post ww1
         1936–39 Arab revolt.
         Transfer Agreement ww2
         Birth of terrorist groups during the British Mandate
         David Ben-Gurion ( and his many revealing quotes )
         Palestinian exodus 47-48 (  Miko Peled )
         Declaration of Independence ( why did the Arabs reject it? )

Sure would have been nice to see what diplomatic solutions the new Palestinian unity Govt had to offer but seeing how most of then are now sitting in jail I don’t think that is going to happen anytime soon.

June 3 timesofisrael.com/un-chief-w … overnment/

and then nydailynews.com/news/world/i … -1.1828611

leading to this tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2014/ … r-revenge/

Coincidence ?

[quote]The Hamas charter calls for the annihilation of worldwide Jewry, every last one of them, whether they be in Israel or Arkansas. Read that before even thinking about forming an opinion about this current conflict.
[/quote]

That is not acceptable and neither is this…

electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali … book-likes

failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed … s-123.html

theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2014/ … more-67632

Dont forget post ottoman pre state arab and druze pogroms against Jews in the 19th and 20th centuries as things to study.

Nor the grand mufti of Jerusalem’s relationship with hitler

nor the influence of mein kampf on arabic nationalism

nor the fact that the identity of being a “palestinian” is largely a post state phenomenon, with most Arabs in what is now Israel identifying themselves as either Syrians or Jordanians.

Oh, and don’t forget Arafat was a wealthy Egyptian who never suffered a day of oppression in his life.

Just more things to consider.

With Iron Dome in place this slaughter isn’t even remotely justified. Izzies need to feed though so there’s not much to be done until they’ve bagged their annual limit of women and children. On the brighter side we’re at least enjoying a temporary respite from neocon crocodile tears for the women and chIldren of Syria being slaughtered by Assad.

Anybody notice Obama has gone nearly awol during this latest slave revolt? Apparently his critics are right. His heart isn’t really in playing overseer to Israel’s Palestinian plantations. Blame that on his being America’s first black president.

Maybe the root cause of this whole travesty is cramming 1.8 million stateless human beings into a barren ghetto 40 kilometers long by 9 wide with no hope of emancipation while regularly culling their family and friends every time they get the least bit uppity. Or maybe the real root cause is Anglo-Americans have always had a moral blind spot when it comes to people of Semitic origin being slaughtered because somebody deems them undesirable.

So it goes.

But it’s only Israel showing maturity. If this were a simple life and death struggle, then Israel could just wipe out the Palestinians and be done with it. Israel shows a great deal of restraint and Hamas shows absolutely no restraint. It’s undisputable that the Palestinians are suffering, but it’s largely of their own doing. Especially in Gaza, they broadly support Hamas, which as everyone knows has vowed to destroy Israel. Hamas is a bully that doesn’t know he’s outmatched, but he’s still a bully. It’s not possible to negotiate with a bully, because he’s only interested in harming you or using you. Even if you strike a “deal” with a bully, he’ll just take more later on.

Insisting that both sides are guilty and need to be mature is a platitude and an expression of false equivalency.

That’s Klaus Barbie, butcher of Lyon, I presume.

[quote]Klaus Barbie
Nikolaus ‘Klaus’ Barbie was an SS-Hauptsturmführer and Gestapo member. He was known as the “Butcher of Lyon” for having personally tortured French prisoners of the Gestapo while stationed in Lyon, France.[/quote]
Speaking of butcher of Lyon, this might be an apt time - in the spirit of “never forget, never again” - to revisit his legacy:

[quote]4.2 Principles of the Nuremberg Tribunal, 1950

2. War Crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave-labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war, of persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.[/quote]

I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but Iron Dome isn’t magic. It’s somewhat overhyped.

It’s not as useless as ShamWow or Odammitcare, but it’s no patronus charm either.

But it’s only Israel showing maturity. If this were a simple life and death struggle, then Israel could just wipe out the Palestinians and be done with it. Israel shows a great deal of restraint and Hamas shows absolutely no restraint. It’s undisputable that the Palestinians are suffering, but it’s largely of their own doing. Especially in Gaza, they broadly support Hamas, which as everyone knows has vowed to destroy Israel. Hamas is a bully that doesn’t know he’s outmatched, but he’s still a bully. It’s not possible to negotiate with a bully, because he’s only interested in harming you or using you. Even if you strike a “deal” with a bully, he’ll just take more later on.
[/quote]

Well, this is modern Israel in a nutshell. Netanyahu is a thug if ever there was one; witness his behavior even toward the US president when Obama dares to be anything other than supportive. Netanyahu is not a man of peace; As Peter Beinart has written, he favors the ideal of the Jew as warrior. This is sick in a country that is essentially a secular democracy.

I used to support Israel for the broad reasons it was a democratic state and a needed safehouse for the Jewish people, uniquely persecuted throughout history. But I don’t think anyone paying attention these past years can fail to notice that Israel has no intention of honoring any of its promises to building a two state solution, to dismantling the settlements, or to get past the apartheid system they have established in Gaza.

Israel has no interest in a peaceful solution. They also completely manufactured this present crises. The Israelis knew from the beginning the boys were dead and they also knew Hamas was not responsible. They whipped up the public none-the-less to support another round of violence. I have no interest in supporting this.

Read almost every fair-minded report from the area and you will hear the same refrain: Israel is not what it was and the conditions in Gaza are so sub-standard they have obviously fueled support for Hamas. As for whether Hamas is worse than Israel, that doesn’t really interest me. Israel is the secular democracy and ally of the west. If it wants to maintain that status it needs to change as its behavior is so far behind what we should accept, and what Americans especially, who give enormous aid, should accept.

View from the funhouse:

[quote]Some are shamelessly accusing Israel of genocide and would put us in the dock for war crimes. But the truth is that the Israeli Defense Forces should be given the Nobel Peace Prize… a Nobel Peace Prize for fighting with unimaginable restraint.[/quote]- Ron Dermer, Israeli ambassador to the U.S.

[quote=“Mucha Man”]Well, this is modern Israel in a nutshell. Netanyahu is a thug if ever there was one; witness his behavior even toward the US president when Obama dares to be anything other than supportive. Netanyahu is not a man of peace; As Peter Beinart has written, he favors the ideal of the Jew as warrior. This is sick in a country that is essentially a secular democracy.

I used to support Israel for the broad reasons it was a democratic state and a needed safehouse for the Jewish people, uniquely persecuted throughout history. But I don’t think anyone paying attention these past years can fail to notice that Israel has no intention of honoring any of its promises to building a two state solution, to dismantling the settlements, or to get past the apartheid system they have established in Gaza.

Israel has no interest in a peaceful solution. They also completely manufactured this present crises. The Israelis knew from the beginning the boys were dead and they also knew Hamas was not responsible. They whipped up the public none-the-less to support another round of violence. I have no interest in supporting this.

Read almost every fair-minded report from the area and you will hear the same refrain: Israel is not what it was and the conditions in Gaza are so sub-standard they have obviously fueled support for Hamas. As for whether Hamas is worse than Israel, that doesn’t really interest me. Israel is the secular democracy and ally of the west. If it wants to maintain that status it needs to change as its behavior is so far behind what we should accept, and what Americans especially, who give enormous aid, should accept.[/quote]

Wow. I’m a bit stunned here. I’m used to uninspired, trite one liners or sprays of links to fringe websites. I’m not sure how to respond to a cohesive, well-written rebuttal anymore. :laughing:

But I’ll try. Israel has not committed to a two state solution. It’s one of the most controversial policies within Israel society, and Israelis are deeply divided on the subject and have been for decades. We can’t hold Israel’s feet to the fire to support a policy that it’s government has not agreed to. Nor has Israel agreed to stop all settlement activities.

Speaking of settlements, remember that Israel abandoned its colonies in Gaza several years ago. Did Hamas take this in good faith? No, they declared victory, staged a military march across the territory, burned down Israeli greenhouses (that were left in tact for the benefit of Palestinians), and promptly began using Gaza as a staging ground for rocket attacks and border raids. Why should Israelis believe that the Palestinians will react any differently if they abandon settlements in the West Bank?

Israel is in a no-win situation. If they show good faith and remove their occupying forces, the Palestinians take it as weakness, shoot rockets and kidnap young Israelis. If they show strength, then the world calls them brutes. Given the choices, I can’t blame Israelis for asserting control and standing their ground.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinian people. They basically live in huge, open air prisons. Many of their towns are surrounded by tall fences topped with razor wire, and patrolled by the IDF. They can’t travel without permits, and their activities are closely monitored. Apartheid is an apt description, a simple fact that most Americans are blissfully ignorant of. And yet, none of this justifies the wanton acts of violence that Palestinians regularly commit against Israelis, or a broadly popular political charter straight out of Mein Kampf.

I think any false equivalency is on the part of anyone who would say Palestinians are asking for it because Hamas. I think the average Palestinian just wants a chance to live without fear of being hit by a missile, shot by an Israeli soldier, or coerced by his own people into performing a suicide attack. Hamas wants violent jihad.

While you say Israel is using restraint (yes, they could level all of Gaza if they wanted), keep in mind that Israelis have bomb shelters. If the fighting gets bad enough, they can temporarily relocate to other parts of the country. These are both luxuries that the Palestinians do not have. Nowhere in Gaza is safe.

Edit: I’m not going to condemn Israel because I don’t know what it’s like to live in their situation. But I recognize a humanitarian crisis, regardless of who is behind it. I think even the Israeli military agrees that the suffering incurred by the 1,000+ (!) dead Palestinians and the even greater number of injured or displaced people and broken families is not how things should or have to be.

Absolutely surreal.

Israeli born Miko Peled ,author of The General’s son , shares his views on the conflict.

youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ