Israel / Palestine news

Interesting. I’m not even sure how to title the thread – Palestinians start to get their act together; Egypt feeling frisky post-thug; Israel’s divide and do nothing experiences a set back?
Apparently, Egypt’s also loosening the border restrictions that helped keep the lid on that pressure cooker.

A few weeks ago, Egypt also allowed an Iranian war ship to pass through the Suez Canal for the first time in decades. Maybe it’s all an extravagant demonstration of creativity and political prowess among competing would-be presidential candidates in the run up to Egyptian elections. :idunno:

[quote=“CBC: Hamas, Fatah reconcile”]Rival Palestinian factions Fatah and Hamas on Wednesday proclaimed a landmark, Egyptian-mediated reconciliation pact aimed at ending their bitter four-year rift.

The declaration was made at a ceremony at the Egyptian intelligence headquarters in Cairo.

Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said the accord ended “four black years” that hurt national Palestinian interests. He also said he would “soon” visit Hamas-held Gaza Strip.

The pact provides for the creation of a joint caretaker Palestinian government ahead of national elections next year, but leaves key issues unresolved and makes no mention of peace talks with Israel.

Israel has denounced the pact in advance of the Cairo ceremony, because of the militant Hamas’ long history of deadly attacks against Israeli targets. It has equated the deal with a renunciation of peacemaking.

Israel considers Hamas a terrorist organization and says it will not negotiate with a future Palestinian government that includes the Iranian- and Syrian-backed group.

Abbas rejected Israel’s opposition to the pact, saying the reconciliation with the militant Islamic group was an internal Palestinian affair.[/quote]

[quote=“NYT”]Israel’s borders erupted in deadly clashes on Sunday as thousands of Palestinians — marching from Syria, Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank — confronted Israeli troops to mark the anniversary of Israel’s creation. More than a dozen people were reported killed and scores injured in the unprecedented wave of coordinated protests.

Protesters climbed over the border fence as they crossed from Syria into the Israeli-controlled Golan Heights on Sunday.
At the Lebanese border Israeli troops shot at hundreds of Palestinians trying to cross, killing 10 protesters and wounding more than 100, the Lebanese military said.

The biggest confrontation took place on the Golan Heights when hundreds of Palestinians living in Syria breached a border fence and crowded into the village of Majdal Shams, waving Palestinian flags. Troops fired on the crowd, killing four of them.

Every year in mid-May many Palestinians mark what they call Nakba, or the catastrophe, the anniversary of Israel’s declaration of independence in 1948 and the start of a war in which thousands of Palestinians lost their homes through expulsion and flight.

But this is the first year that Palestinian refugees in Syria and Lebanon tried to breach the Israeli military border in marches inspired by recent popular protests around the Arab world. Here too, word about the rallies was spread on social media sites.
[/quote]Good luck guarding against that.

In other news, good luck finding a settlement.

[quote=“NYT: George Mitchell resigns as Chief Middle East Envoy”]
George J. Mitchell Jr., the former senator who brokered peace in Northern Ireland and investigated the use of steroids in Major League Baseball, is resigning as the chief United States envoy to the Israelis and Palestinians amid growing frustration over the impasse in peace talks, the White House announced Friday.[/quote]

Let’s hope that the Salafists stay out of the picture. Those guys are REALLY bad news.

Then there’s the Iranians stirring the pot, and Turkey continues to abandon secularism for something islamist.

Very interesting times.

Maybe. So far, the gov’t’s gone from a French position (hard secular) to an American one (obvious ties, strong safeguards). There’s some ways to go before adopting a state religion (like the UK, Nordic countries). I’m not yet worried.

Egypt grows more democratic, Turkey grows more confident and is willing to ditch its ‘No Problems with the Neighbours’ policy when it feels doing what’s right is worth a small shit storm. More than enough room for mistakes, but also lots of positives.

[quote=“Jaboney”]Good luck guarding against that.

[/quote]

Well, they’re pretty much sitting ducks as they cross the fence one by one. Any half decent marksman would be able to pot them from half a mile away.

:slight_smile:

[quote=“urodacus”][quote=“Jaboney”]Good luck guarding against that.

[/quote]

Well, they’re pretty much sitting ducks as they cross the fence one by one. Any half decent marksman would be able to pot them from half a mile away.

:slight_smile:[/quote]

Which is what they did. They gunned theirs asses down scared thousands back to the other side of the border. I don’t think Israel needs any luck, despite Jaboney’s “best wishes”.

Wait and see. Few people will accept the necessity of the state shooting people in cold blood too frequently.

So, we should set up a new international rule. No border controls. No restrictions. People should be free to run back and forth across borders, anywhere and anytime that they want.

Sounds like the EU. I could live with that. Unrealistic? So was the EU, back in the days of the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain. Surely you wouldn’t prefer life in a fortress, or next to an open air prison, to one of free movement?

Yes, I realize that’s a ridiculous, stark caricature of what’s possible, but the current situation is a rather stark caricature of what ought to be considered acceptable.

[quote=“Jaboney”]Sounds like the EU. I could live with that. Unrealistic? So was the EU, back in the days of the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain. Surely you wouldn’t prefer life in a fortress, or next to an open air prison, to one of free movement?

Yes, I realize that’s a ridiculous, stark caricature of what’s possible, but the current situation is a rather stark caricature of what ought to be considered acceptable.[/quote]

Well, as long as the choice is security vs free movement, you cannot expect a population to prefer free movement. And, it takes a long time for promises of security to be believed. Remember how long it took the Europeans to bring down their borders? And how many wars had to be fought in the meantime? And, how many millions died in the process?

Sure. But if people are being gunned down at the border, I think that’s a clear signal that gov’ts on both sides have profoundly failed over the long term, or very badly screwed the pooch in the near term. Reason enough to try something different.

I hope – but won’t hold my breath – that Arab democratization will improve the situation outside of Israel. But if Arab democracies emerge and elect characters of the type Israelis have been turning to in recent years, it’ll probably mean a really, really nasty war. (Which I’d expect Israel to win, and rue.)

Seriously. Open borders?

You can only do that if you have shared values, and Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. Furthermore, most countries in the Middle East don’t have shared values, even without considering Israel.

No, I don’t expect open borders anytime soon. But I also don’t accept the need, nor the legitimacy, of border slaughter.

Eight people killed when hundreds pour over three different borders isn’t border slaughter.

THAT is called restraint.

EIGHT PEOPLE KILLED for illegally crossing the border. You call that restraint? Really??

Eight people killed when hundreds pour over three different borders isn’t border slaughter.

THAT is called restraint.[/quote]

State sanctioned murder more like.

Yes, when they are an angry mob of hundreds of men that are volleying stones at soldiers.

Have you ever been hit by a rock? Ever seen someone killed by them?

What do you expect?

[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”]What do you expect?[/quote]Better.

[quote=“The Economist”]ON SUNDAY Israel got an unexpected and unpalatable taste of its nightmare scenario: masses of Palestinians marching, unarmed, towards the borders of the Jewish state, demanding the redress of their decades-old national grievance.[/quote]What would you suggest if that ‘nightmare scenario’ should come to pass?

(Ever read Tom Clancy? In one of his fictions, Palestinians embracing non-violent protest and provoking a state murder response is ultimately responsible for the imposition of a peace settlement. He also imagined using a 747 as a piloted missile for an attack on Washington long before 9/11.)

[quote=“The Economist”]In three separate episodes during the day—on the Syrian border with the Golan Heights, on the Lebanese border and on the border with the Gaza Strip—those marching were met with live gun fire. At least a dozen Palestinians died. Scores more, most of them young men, were injured.
[…]
The prospect of mass, unarmed “invasions” by refugee Palestinians from across the borders, though much discussed as a doomsday scenario, was apparently not seriously contemplated by the army. As a result, when a couple of thousand Palestinians, bused to the Golan border opposite the town of Majdal Shams, began clambering over the fence, only a small force of soldiers confronted them.

“I ordered the army to exercise maximal restraint,” said Israel’s prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, in a brief televised announcement in the evening. “But no-one should be mistaken; we are determined to defend our borders and our sovereignty.”

On the Golan border, several Palestinians were shot dead. But the Israeli officer in command decided not to fire wholesale, and hundreds of people eventually poured through the broken fence and into Majdal Shams. Local residents, Druze citizens of Syria who live prosperously but carefully under Israeli occupation, rounded them up and escorted them firmly back over the border. “We’re not happy about this,” Dolan Abu Salah, the town’s mayor, told Israeli television.
[…]
But behind the brave facade, many in Israel are seriously worried that the powerful phenomenon of masses marching in defiance of armed force may at last be spreading to Palestine after challenging so many regimes in the region.[/quote]
That officer who decided not to fire on the ‘invaders’ wholesale, and the local Druze who rounded them up and escorted them back over the border, that’s a hell of a lot better solution.

As this is the Economist – not sometimes too idealistic Jaboney – raising the prospect of peaceful marches as a serious challenge, what do you think?

Btw, there’s also this: [quote=“Haaretz: Israel was infiltrated, but no real borders were crossed”]The Syrians penetrated an area held by the State of Israel, but they did not cross the Israeli border. Nor did Palestinians from the Gaza Strip attempt to cross the Israeli border in the south.[/quote]

And this:

[quote=“Haaretz editorial”][b]The defense minister was right to say he refuses to get excited over the fact that “a few dozen” Palestinians succeeded in entering Israel from Syria and thereby “violated Israel’s sovereignty.”

Ehud Barak was also right to say that the Israel Defense Forces cannot station thousands of soldiers along the border to prevent such a “violation of sovereignty.”[/b]

But it’s a pity this approach was lacking when Israel decided to attack a Turkish-sponsored flotilla to Gaza, that it vanishes when Israel uses dogs to chase off Palestinian laborers seeking to “violate its sovereignty” by entering the country to work, and that it’s the exact opposite of the manner in which the IDF maintains its meticulous closure of the Gaza Strip.

It turns out that according to Barak, a “violation of sovereignty” is not an existential threat, or even a strategic one. At most, this was an intelligence failure that was partially compensated for by wise judgment on the part of commanders in the field.

And in fact, this is the appropriate attitude for a country that is making little effort to delineate its borders, instead relying on an empty policy that assumes Israel can continue to exist in flexible, unrecognized borders that trespass on territory belonging to other nations.

As a result of this policy, the state’s sovereignty has also become flexible rather than absolute. [b]It’s no surprise that statements about the events of Nakba Day made much use of words and phrases such as “terror,” “threat,” “the IDF’s deployment,” “the number of dead and wounded,” “a third intifada” and “the threat we can expect in September.”

This is the standard lexicon that the government pulls out whenever it is faced with the need to present real solutions to fundamental problems.[/b][/quote]

It wasn’t cold blood. Those troops could easily have been overrun. It was a hostile group of men specifically opposed to the existence of Israel, there on Israel’s anniversary to taunt the IDF at the border.

Eight people killed when hundreds pour over three different borders isn’t border slaughter.

THAT is called restraint.[/quote]

State sanctioned murder more like.[/quote]

I don’t agree with it being categorized as “State sanctioned murder.” When you got a mob of hundreds of people running and breaking at your border, and you fire warning shots to stop them, but they continue, what do you expect? I don’t understand why the Lebanese or Syrian military were preventing their civilians from crossing the border.

If a military fires warning shots into the air, my advice, is NOT TO APPROACH them. I mean are these people idiots?