Israel & Palestine

Hamas was originally fostered by Israel in order undermine the authority of Arafat, Fatah and the PLO, just as Al Qaeda and the Taliban, or the forces from which they arose, where fostered by the USA in order to counter the Soviet Union and communism in Afghanistan and other moslem countries. Now all these terrorist forces have got out of control and ordinary people in New York and Israel are suffering the consequences. It is a familiar pattern - Saddam Hussein started out with American backing, too. There is some information on the origins of Hamas on http://www.mideastfacts.com/hanania_hamas.html

To be more accurate, Palestine was given to the zionists, who chose to call their new state Israel. In fact, the zionists were not given all of Palestine, but they later took the rest of it by force, anyway.

It’s clear Israel would have been a pariah country years ago except for the overt support it enjoys from the US. That supporter of ‘freedom an civil rights’ the world over.
I’m from Europe. I’ve heard my views echoed by people from South America, Central America, Africa, the Middle East, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. The mainstream view in America over these type of issues is totally disconnected from what most of the world thinks. I believe it stems from the political and military influence in education over there and the insularity of the media. All that singing the national anthem sort of stuff is harmless until people really fall for it.

Recently I was sharing a place with an American who had been a proud member of the armed forces. I didn’t even bother trying to educate the guy on some issues. The guy had no idea on what and why the US supports causes. At home we’d call him special alright but not the way you guys understand it.
Well that’s armies for you. The problem was he was convinced that everything they do is to safeguard the free world. That concept is so stupidly simple-minded but seems to be held by the vast majority of Americans. OIL, GAS, POWER, TRADE, CAPITALISM- these are the real factors on which the machine works, to think otherwise is to be a total fool.

For the sake of peace in the household I avoided the subject and commenting on the latest CNN report as his mind was made up.

Luckily there are still plenty of level heads knocking around like Conan Powell. Course he can’t be president cos he’s black, gotta be a dumbass oil millionaire with a few thousand cows and you might make the grade. What country has never had a female leader or a minority has head of state. Are you really so advanced?

While realising it’s the Israeli people themselves who are responsible for going down a cul-de-sac they rely on the back up of the US military to pursue this course. How can you remove the dignity of a whole country (Palestine) and believe it will solve anything. When humans become non-people is it any wonder they are driven to mad suicide attacks. Well once the Palestinians get their act together militarily the situation will become very different and the military solution will be revealed in all its weakness. I mean all they have to do is get some landmines and rocket launchers and the whole occupation will become a deadly drain on the Israeli army.

I have found that a number of my Taiwanese friends are anti-Jewish. Many of them with experience in the hotel and airline industries have many complaints about Jewish people and their “attitudes”.

i’m not sure why so many people are surprised that a lot of americans take the palestinian side in the conflict. every liberal i know who is not of jewish decent takes the same view.

what i find disturbing is that people who support the palestinian cause sometimes like to throw out the “americans are brainwashed by the all-powerful jewish media” line. i guess they have that stereotype in common with the anti-semetic elements of the religious right.

as for the jewish lobby having sway over bush’s israel policy, that’s a bit of a stretch since pretty much all jewish votes and political contributions go to the democrats. jim baker’s famous line concerning the jewish lobby was “f*ck the jews. they don’t vote for us anyway.” but i’m sure someone can come up with a conspiracy theory somehow linking bush to the jewish lobby.

The only surprising part about this whole sad cycle of murder and mayhem was Crown Prince Abdullah stepping forward with a peace plan - and that it has been supported by the other Arab states. I was floored. Recognition for Israel? I never thought I’d see the day. Hopefully some good will come of it… Powell certainly seems to be dragging his feet, taking his sweet time to get to Israel and giving Sharon plenty of time to pound away in the West Bank. I had truly hoped that all this suffering was close to ending when we saw the Oslo Peace Accord, but this dreadful story seems to have at least one more chapter left to tell.

Palestine is not a country, hence my question is: What is Yasser Arafat’s nationality? What passport does he carry?

The telethon(s) probably raised enough money to buy the Palestinians their own country somewhere…
Do you suppose we could then add them to the list of countries that recognize Taiwan? Nah, too friendly with the US infidels.
Unfortunately their energies are focused on killing people, including their own in the process, to gain sympathy for their cause. Personally, I don’t understand the logic. But then I don’t understand terrorism or war, except to think that they are futile attempts for one group to assert power or rights over another group. There doesn’t seem to be any room for compromise–hence peace is impossible.
I’m still wondering what incentive the young women have for blowing themselves up? What does Allah promise them? Perhaps they are being pressured by their families who will reap the financial compensation after the dirty deed is accomplished?

I think it’s rather naive to think that the Palestinian / Israeli conflict can be settled in terms of border demarcations, UN resolutions and 20th-century weapons.
These things only complicate an issue that revolves around racial discrimination and religious intolerence that dates back to biblical days. Israelites and Phillistines slugging it out make the the most interesting Bible reading.
Muslim countries of the Middle East have been prepared to assimilate stateless Palestinians for decades, and as far I remember, almost 50% of those who claim they are of Palestinian origin reside in other Middle East countries, and the majority have been offered new nationalities, gainful employment and moved onto more prosperous lives.
Those who remain to slug it out in the region they are fighting for are pissing into the wind. The idea that you would rather strap explosives onto a family member and tell them to go and do what Allah has commanded is preposterous, especially when other nations are generous enough to institute policies that would give the average Palestinian a much more sensible way out.
Sateless and hopeless? The pictures broadcast on CNN and speeches by Arafat and his goons might suggest this is so. But the reality is very much different.
I don’t advocate the expansion of Israeli settlments, nor the bloody retaliatory measures against Palestinian attacks, but rather a more pragmatic solution in terms of the larger picture of the Middle East.

Millions of Palestinians live stateless in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria and have done so for 50 years and you don’t think that’s crazy…
The fact is no local Arab government is going to grant these people citizenship, too many, too volatile and too poor. So if you were a person who was not a citizen of a country and will never have a chance to be one perhaps you could think about your response and what do you have to lose?

If this is the reality of the situation, then these people have valid complaints against the governments of Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria. They should enforce those complaints through the court system and through the United Nations. If they have been living in these countries for 50 years without citizenship, obviously this amounts to serious human rights violations, and the United Nations will have to do something (if a well documented complaint is filed).

hi DJ, I couldn’t help but notice that your profile says that you are French.

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Originally posted by dj: I've been just assuming that I'm basically the only white guy around who is sickened and disgusted by what Israel has done and continues to do to the Palestinians.

How about that! I am just assuming that I’m basically the only white guy around who is sickened and disgusted by what France did for centuries to people that it colonized around the world.

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Originally posted by dj: It reminds me so much of the situation and treatment that the natives in N. America have undergone for centuries now.

How about that too! This is also reminds me of the situation and treatment that the natives in many parts of Africa, the Middle East and Asia underwent for centuries at the hands of the French.

This is also reminds me of the situation and treatment that minorities in all parts of France have been undergoing, and continue to undergo, for centuries at the hands of the French.

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Originally posted by dj: It's nice to know that my developing stereotype of 99% of all white westerners as just being insulated hard-core conservative wackos who are bent on world domination at the expense of the lives of whatever brown people that stand "in their way" may not necessarily be all that justified.

And how about that too! It’s nice to know that my developing stereotype of frenchmen as just being insulated hard-core conservative wackos who are bent on world domination at the expense of whatever brown people that stand “in their way” was in fact justified by the high vote total that Le Pen received this past Sunday!

And how about this! It took over fifty years until a French president had the decency to apologize for French complicity in the destruction of French Jewry during the Holocaust.

Say, DJ, do you know how many Jews, most of them French citizens whose families had lived in France for centuries (at least, starting from the previous time France had killed all her Jews), some of whom made great contributions to France, some of whom fought for France in previous wars, were sent east to the death camps? Not just by Germans, but by French collaborators with the Nazis?

And DJ, do you know how many Americans are buried in France? Americans that fought and died so that France could have its freedom? Not just once. Twice, DJ. Twice. They were called World War I and World War II. Perhaps you had forgotten, given the French Army’s rather unglorioius record of having not won a war it fought on its own in at least 250 years.

It’s obvious that this issue means a great deal to many people, but unfortunately, it appears as though most of us out there have already decided who is right and who is wrong.

Let us establish a few ground rules in order to preserve some semblance of real debate.

Any person who feels that Israel has not committed a single atrocity in the 19 months of the latest Palestinian intifada is choosing to ignore the basic realities of war, which is what we are talking about here … war.

At the same time, those who see Palestinians as an unarmed people undeservedly receiving Israeli aggression is not facing up to the history of the region or the hatred against Jews by many Palestinians.

Let’s first quickly look at the situation of the Palestinian people. Yes, they are poor. Yes, they are discriminated against. And yes, innocent civilians get killed and are sometimes targeted by Israelis.

The number of Palestinian refugees is in itself a crime. It is a crime that all nations, big and small, must share blame in. No country, including Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon, has truly come to the aid of the Palestinians. Why? Because for years before Israel was established as a nation, Palestinians were fighting with just about everyone to have a homeland. Palestine was never really a state, not in the sense that we recognize states today.

The plight of that people has been wretched. They have been fighting no only Jews, but other Arabs, and even Western nations for that small chunk of land. I think most reasonable people agree that Palestinians do deserve the right to govern themselves in a free and independent state.

Looking at the Israelis, or for that matter the Jewish people, their misfortune, I would say, has been equally great. One only needs to look at the Holocaust to understand the psyche that has shaped that nation.

Palestinian/Israeli Hatred
When did all this hatred begin? Both sides have their own reasons. After WWII, when Israel was established, Britain was obligated by treaty to be the protectorate of that whole region. Jews were fighting for a homeland in the wake of the Holocaust slaughter and Zionism pointed to Israel as the natural conclusion to end Diaspora (dispersion of the Jews).
Of course, the land wasn

I think that although nobody wants to admit it, there are only two ways peace will be achieved in Israel:

  1. One sides total devastation of the otherside, forcing the other side off the land in a violent and bloody manner.

  2. A wall sets in stone where the borders are. The two nations cut off almost all contact with each other. It becomes illegal to move between them.

This is an interesting Op/Ed piece I read in The New York Times.

Suicidal Lies

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

The outcome of the war now under way between the Israelis and Palestinians is vital to the security of every American, and indeed, I believe, to all of civilization. Why? Quite simply because Palestinians are testing out a whole new form of warfare, using suicide bombers - strapped with dynamite and dressed as Israelis - to achieve their political aims. And it is working.

Israelis are terrified. And Palestinians, although this strategy has wrecked their society, feel a rising sense of empowerment. They feel they finally have a weapon that creates a balance of power with Israel, and maybe, in their fantasies, can defeat Israel. As Ismail Haniya, a Hamas leader, said in The Washington Post, Palestinians have Israelis on the run now because they have found their weak spot. Jews, he said, “love life more than any other people, and they prefer not to die.” So Palestinian suicide bombers are ideal for dealing with them. That is really sick.

The world must understand that the Palestinians have not chosen suicide bombing out of “desperation” stemming from the Israeli occupation. That is a huge lie. Why? To begin with, a lot of other people in the world are desperate, yet they have not gone around strapping dynamite to themselves. More important, President Clinton offered the Palestinians a peace plan that could have ended their “desperate” occupation, and Yasir Arafat walked away. Still more important, the Palestinians have long had a tactical alternative to suicide: nonviolent resistance,

So that’s the Jewish take. Does anyone have an OBJECTIVE rationale?

Naomi Klein wrote the following article in the Globe & Mail:

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I knew from e-mail reports that something new was going on in Washington last weekend. A demonstration against the World Bank and International Monetary Fund was joined by an antiwar march, as well as a demonstration against the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory.
In the end, all the marches joined together in what organizers described as the largest Palestinian solidarity demonstration in U.S. history, 75,000 people by police estimates.
On Sunday night, I turned on my television in the hope of catching a glimpse of this historic protest. I saw something else, instead: triumphant Jean-Marie Le Pen celebrating his newfound status as the second-most popular political leader in France. Ever since, I’ve been wondering whether the new alliance displayed on the streets can also deal with this latest threat.
As a critic both of the Israeli occupation and of corporate-dictated globalization, it seems to me that the convergence that took place in Washington last weekend was long overdue. Despite easy labels like “antiglobalization,” the trade-related protests of the past three years have all been about self-determination: the right of people everywhere to decide how best to organize their societies and economies, whether that means introducing land reform in Brazil, or producing generic AIDS drugs in India, or, indeed, resisting an occupying force in Palestine.
When hundreds of globalization activists began flocking to Ramallah to act as “human shields” between Israeli tanks and Palestinians, the theory that has been developing outside trade summits was put into concrete action. Bringing that courageous spirit back to Washington, where so much Middle Eastern policy is made, was the next logical step.
But when I saw Mr. Le Pen beaming on TV, arms raised in triumph, some of my enthusiasm drained away. There is no connection whatsoever between French fascism and the “free Palestine” marchers in Washington (indeed, the only people Mr. Le Pen’s supporters seem to dislike more than Jews are Arabs). And yet, I couldn’t help thinking about all the recent events I’ve been to where anti-Muslim violence was rightly condemned, Ariel Sharon deservedly blasted, but no mention was made of attacks on Jewish synagogues, cemeteries and community centres. Or about the fact that every time I log onto activist news sites such as Indymedia.org, which practise “open publishing,” I’m confronted with a string of Jewish conspiracy theories about 9-11 and excerpts from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
The globalization movement isn’t anti-Semitic, it just hasn’t fully confronted the implications of diving into the Middle East conflict. Most people on the left are simply choosing sides and in the Middle East, where one side is under occupation and the other has the U.S. military behind it, the choice seems clear. But it is possible to criticize Israel while forcefully condemning the rise of anti-Semitism.
And it is equally possible to be pro-Palestinian independence without adopting a simplistic “pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel” dichotomy, a mirror image of the good-versus-evil equations so beloved by President George W. Bush.
Why bother with such subtleties while bodies are still being pulled out of the rubble in Jenin? Because anyone interested in fighting Le Pen-style fascism or Sharon-style brutality has to deal with the reality of anti-Semitism head-on.
The hatred of Jews is a potent political tool in the hands of the right in Europe and in Israel. For Mr. Le Pen, anti-Semitism is a windfall, helping spike his support from 10 per cent to 17 per cent in a week.
For Ariel Sharon, it is the fear of anti-Semitism, both real and imagined, that is the weapon. Mr. Sharon likes to say that he stands up to terrorists to show he is not afraid. In fact, his policies are driven by fear. His great talent is that he fully understands the depths of Jewish fear of another Holocaust. He knows how to draw parallels between Jewish anxieties about anti-Semitism and American fears of terrorism.
And he is an expert at harnessing all of it for his political ends. The primary, and familiar, fear that Mr. Sharon draws on, the one that allows him to claim all aggressive actions as defensive ones, is the fear that Israel’s neighbours want to drive the Jews into the sea. The secondary fear Mr. Sharon manipulates is the fear among Jews in the Diaspora that they will eventually be driven to seek safe haven in Israel. This fear leads millions of Jews around the world, many of them sickened by Israeli aggression, to shut up and send their cheques, a down payment on future sanctuary.
The equation is simple: The more fearful Jews are, the more powerful Mr. Sharon is. Elected on a platform of “peace through security,” his administration could barely hide its delight at Mr. Le Pen’s ascendancy, immediately calling on French Jews to pack their bags and come to the promised land.
For Mr. Sharon, Jewish fear is a guarantee that his power will go unchecked, granting him the impunity needed to do the unthinkable: send troops into the Palestinian Authority’s education ministry to steal and destroy records; bury children alive in their homes; block ambulances from getting to the dying.
Jews outside Israel now find themselves in a tightening vise: The actions of the country that was supposed to ensure their future safety are making them less safe right now. Mr. Sharon is deliberately erasing distinctions between the terms “Jew” and “Israeli,” claiming he is fighting not for Israeli territory but for the survival of the Jewish people. And when anti-Semitism rises at least partly as a result of his actions, it is Mr. Sharon who is positioned once again to collect the political dividends.
And it works. Most Jews are so frightened that they are now willing to do anything to defend Israeli policies. So at my neighbourhood synagogue, where the humble fa

quote:
Originally posted by sandman: So that's the Jewish take. Does anyone have an OBJECTIVE rationale?

Sandman,

So Freidman is Jewish. So what? Are you saying a Jewish writer cannot be objective?

What aspects of the column are not objective?

Of course a Jewish writer can be objective. Friedman himself is usually more objective than this. Howver, if you’re unable or unwilling to read analytically, I’m buggered if I’m going to do it for you.

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Originally posted by sandman: Of course a Jewish writer can be objective. Friedman himself is usually more objective than this. Howver, if you're unable or unwilling to read analytically, I'm buggered if I'm going to do it for you.

Sandman,

I’m dissapointed that you responded with a rather silly comment as I thought you were above that.

Actually, I usually find his writing not to be objective as he usually has a left wing bias.

Let me ask you this Sandman. Did you discover any factual errors in the column? Did you discover any misrepresentations of historical facts? Any misrepresentation of recent and current events in the area?