Okay you have come up with two elections but there have been many more in the Middle East of the variety that you are talking about. What I am talking about is free and fair elections that really mean something. Are you going to suggest that those in Palestine and Iran meet those specifications? Then, you believe that Palestine in 1996 was a democracy? Ditto for Iran? [/quote]
No, I don’t believe either nation was a democracy. I don’t beleive America is much of one either. (Perhaps the best recent example of this comes in the 2004 efforts of Democrats to keep other candidates off the ballot–Soviet Russians and Iraqis under Saddam had 1 choice, we have 1.5 choices.)
You asked for [quote=“fred smith”]democratic stirrings and positive moves toward democracy that took place in the Middle East prior to the Bush invasion. Anything? (my emphases)[/quote] I replied that these fit those criteria. That’s all I was arguing
Apparently his overstaying his welcome happened on Bush’s watch… Again, I’m not argueing either of these events were perfect.
[quote=“fred smith”]Why must the US answer for the military equipment that it sells Israel? [/quote] I don’t know, maybe because it’s part of a massive aid package we give them. Why should Europe answer for weapons it wants to sell China? Because in both cases the sellers shouldn’t pretend they are doing anything other than help create a climate for more violence.
Obviously the death of any innocent person is a tragedy. Isreal is a “democracy,” terrorist groups do not have the same kind of accountability. You seem legitimately pissed that France and Germany sell weapons to “outlaw countries,” well, I’m pissed that the US provides the outlaw Isreal with weapons that kill innocent civilians in the land Isreal occupies.
[quote=“fred smith”]What is the chemical weapons policy of the US? …[/quote] You apparently didn’t read the links.
Am I to assume you don’t want to talk at all about torture?
First of all, those “democratic” elections were staged by their respective government. This does not count as democratic stirrings.
Second, if you do not think that the US is a democracy, then what’s the point of even having this discussion?
Third, do you equate deaths from Palestinian terrorists that target Israeli civilians with Israeli military actions against terrorist groups that accidentally kill civilians?
Fourth, do you see no difference in supplying Israel with some weapons (we do the same for Jordan and Egypt) among other Arab nations with EU weapons sales to China? First of all, China is not being threatened by anyone. They will be a threat to someone. And that threat will directly threaten the US and its allies. When the US sells weapons to Israel, how does this in anyway threaten France, Germany, Egypt, Jordan?
Fifth, I did not read the chemical warfare section. Too many links. Can you just tell me what your point is? Finally, I do not know what your point is on torture either. Just summarize it for me. I had a heavy lunch and these leftist conspiracy sites with all their theories about the evils of America tends to make me somnolent under even the brightest of circumstances.
I guess you’d have to define “stirrings.” Aren’t most elections “staged” by someone? There is also, I believe a broad-based extra-governmental reform movement in Iran, no? I’m thinking specifically of their students movement.
I said I didn’t think it was “much of a democracy.” Such things aren’t always black or white.
In that they are both shameful tragedies, yes. In the sense that they are identical, no. So I guess that would be a no.
There are certainly differences. But at the same time, if Al Qaida gains recruting traction from these facts and uses those recruits to attack western targets, or hotels in Egypt, or military and financial centers in the US, many people are threatened.
No. If your too lazy to do the reading, don’t expect me to hold your hand so you can feel included in the discussion. (I might have done it if you’d treated me with more respect at the beginning of this thread…) Besides I’m paying for my access by the hour. It’s interesting that you berate me for not being online enough for your convenience and then expect me to waste my time. I’d have happily posted the full text, but I’ve already been smacked down by the moderators for that.
Well, I find torture offensive. I also think it breeds contemt against the practioners and the groups they represent. I have also heard it’s relatively inneffective, but cannot verify this. I don’t believe the Geneva convention is quaint. I also think we should adhere to our constitutional prohibition of “cruel and unusual punishment,” and the notion that people are innocent until proven guilty, even when we’re dealing with thugs.
Again, I’m not argueing either of these events were perfect.