IUP, BLCU, or MTC?

Language Learning Chinese
1

For the past few years, I’ve been thinking about going back to study Chinese full time. The reason I haven’t is that I’m married; I would either have to leave my wife in the HK area and go study for a year, or we would both uproot and go to whereever I end up studying. I’m already at a fairly high level. I live on the mainland and can get by smoothly at work and socially. However, I would like to go back for an MA in translation/interpreting some day.

Right now, I don’t think I’m good enough to do that. I have never had a chance to study full-time. In my opinion, I’ve done quite well for someone who has only been able to study part-time. However, considering that I would actually like Chinese to be my core job skill, I feel like studying part time or by myself is like crawling; I’ll never be able to build the critical mass necessary for doing a higher degree. My wife and I have talked about this a lot lately. She seems to have realized that I’ll never be satisfied with my language ability until I’ve had the chance to study full time in a serious environment. I also hate my present job. The money is not bad, but I see no future in it.

My wife and I are slowly starting to agree that I may need to study full time for a year before applying for a graduate program in HK or the U.S. We are not rich, but we have enough money put back so that I could do this. My question for everyone is as follows: If cost were not the primary concern, where would you choose to study for one year? I want the most rigorous program that can be had for an advanced student. I want the best teachers, the best materials and the smallest class sizes that can be found. I don’t care about academic credits. I am just looking for the best place to learn.

Where should I go? The top three choices that come to mind are the Inter-University Program (IUP) at Qinghua University, Beijing Language and Cultural University and the NTNU MTC. These are my thoughts about these three places:

The IUP is by far the most expensive. Tuition, room and board would run to about US$18,000 for one year. On paper, it looks quite good: 15 hours a week in small group classes and 5 hours a week of 1 to 1. However, they seem to moslty focus on intermediate students. I wonder if they will really have that much in the way of materials and teaching experience for high-level students. I remember being very impressed by their website a few years ago. While it still looks impressive, I wonder if they will have much for me.

BLCU seems to have very good materials. I have a lot of the books that IUP claims to use; while they aren’t crap, they don’t seem as well designed as BLCU’s. BLCU is also pretty cheap. Tuition is less than US$3,000 a year; it seems that the total bill for BLCU would be up to US$10,000 less than IUP. However, I get the impression that class sizes at BLCU are big–I think up to 20 students–but maybe fewer for higher level classes. I don’t see anything on their website about 1 to 1 classes. Maybe I could use some of the money saved from not going to IUP to pay for 1 to 1 lessons outside, but I don’t know if I’d be able to find a decent teacher who can give me what I need.

I mentioned the MTC because I know a lot of people have studied there both before and after the IUP changed over to the dark side. From what I’ve read here, quality is slipping. Having lived and studied part time in Taiwan, I don’t think I want my next study experience to be there. If there were an amazingly good program in Taiwan, I would consider it, but I don’t see anything attractive right now.

These three seem to be the best places around to study for a year. Have I missed any other options? Does anyone here have any experiences they can share about these three schools? I’m quite interested to hear from anyone who was already fairly advanced when they began studying at any of these places.

2

If you’d done a search you would have found some answers in the Studying in Beijing thread and the Hanyu Shuiping Kaoshi thread.

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If you’d done a search you would have found some answers in the Studying in Beijing thread and the Hanyu Shuiping Kaoshi thread.[/quote]
Yes, I’ve read both of those threads. What I’m interested in, though, is comparing these three programs.

4

Jive Turkey,

If you are interested in studying in NTNU, now the newest information is available (Jan 15).

ntnu.edu.tw/aa/aa4/aa4.html

Download the document and have a look:
ntnu.edu.tw/aa/aa4/fore/ntu_b.doc

NTNU will only test you one subject.

5

By the way, this is a MA program. Sorry for that I didn’t read your post closely.

6

If you’re not willing to consider any schools outside of those three, I’d say go to Beijing. There’s plenty of stuff to do there, you’ll be learning “standard” Mandarin, and they have Dunkin’ Donuts and Dairy Queen!

I wasn’t very impressed with NTNU’s program, although it served it’s purpose for helping me get into the M.A. program at NTU. However, that’s because I really lucked out with having a good teacher, and because they were high level classes, the number of students was reasonble. When I left last August, things were really going down hill, so I’d say avoid it …

If you’re a bit adventurous, then I’d suggest going to Shaanxi Normal University in Xi’an. I’ve mentioned this in other threads, but I really enjoyed my time spent studying there. Most of the teachers were “imported” from Beijing, so your teachers at least will have a “standard” accent. You get 20 hours of classes per week, plus you can easily pay a little extra to hire one of their teachers for one-on-one classes. Room and board at their foreign students dormitory is very cheap (but so is the quality). The class sizes are small (I only had 3 students in my classes), and they will try to arrange pretty much any kind of class you’re interested in … geography, history, classical, newspaper, etc. Just let them know what you want and they’ll set it up. The only bad thing is that the materials they used weren’t that great … unless they’ve changed in the past 5 years (which is very possible). But, you could always supplement that with materials of your own, or ask the teachers to use other materials. They’re pretty laid back there, so I don’t think that would be a problem. Just something else to think about …

7

actually, if u want to be closer to HK ie maybe keep your home and visit weekends (cuz that’s what someone i met did) is attend one of the language schools in guangdong. one might be skeptical of their accents, but who knows maybe they hire people with a good std putonghua accent.
but i forget the name of the school.

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[quote=“Doug McKenzie”]actually, if u want to be closer to HK ie maybe keep your home and visit weekends (cuz that’s what someone i met did) is attend one of the language schools in guangdong. one might be skeptical of their accents, but who knows maybe they hire people with a good std putonghua accent.
but i forget the name of the school.[/quote]
Yes, I took the HSK at Jinan University, just across the street from Guangzhoudong train station. The university has an independent campus devoted to teaching Chinese to foreigners. It seemed like a BLCU South. They seem to offer the same four year degree as BLCU; they probably use the same materials for it. There are quite a lot of Vietnamese and Koreans there. I only noticed four or five other foreigners taking the HSK, so I’m assuming the school doesn’t have too many western students. All the proctors for the exams were (fucking) northerners; I doubt there are any southerners teaching there. My guess is that the school follows the BLCU model, and I think some of the teachers are originally from BLCU. I’m sure the number of students is a good deal smaller than BLCU, though.

I have thought about studying there. The students I talked to there seemed to have learned well. It would be convenient enough so that I could come back to HK on weekends to see my wife. However, I would really like to get out of the south for a while. The boom town atmosphere gets old. I like Hong Kong, but in my opinion, everything for 500 km across the border is worth skipping. For the sake of my marriage, though, I may settle for Jinan University. Oh, you said your friend managed to cross into HK on weekends. What kind of visa did he use? I’ve heard of people who had trouble doing that on a student visa since the student visa usually isn’t multi-entry. I wonder how firm schools are about studying on a student visa rather than a multi-entry business visa.

9

couldnt you just use your hui sheng zheng like all the other HK ppl? or rather do you get one if you are married to a HK resident?

10

Even if you are a permanent resident of HK, you can not get the same travel pass as HK residents with Chinese nationality. Even if someone has lived in HK their whole life, he/she must still use a passport on the China side of the border. The only way to get the same travel card as my wife is for me to give up U.S. nationality and apply for Chinese nationality. It’s actually quite funny. If you go by the signs at the mainland immigration area at Luohu, you would think the mainlanders are in complete denial that there are foreigners living in HK. On the HK side, there are two areas: one is for foreign and mainland visitors; the other is for

11

Even if you are a permanent resident of HK, you can not get the same travel pass as HK residents with Chinese nationality. Even if someone has lived in HK their whole life, he/she must still use a passport on the China side of the border. The only way to get the same travel card as my wife is for me to give up U.S. nationality and apply for Chinese nationality. It’s actually quite funny. If you go by the signs at the mainland immigration area at Luohu, you would think the mainlanders are in complete denial that there are foreigners living in HK. On the HK side, there are two areas: one is for foreign and mainland visitors; the other is for

12

[quote=“Doug McKenzie”]

i didnt realize foreigners couldnt get the travel visa even if they are HK residents. doesnt the basic law say those who are born in HK are entitled to residency? or was is, of Chinese nationality and born in HK.

what if you were one of those expat kids born and grown up in HK, fluent in Cantonese, never been back to UK or whatever. are you out of luck?
does that mean the indian minority who have been there for generations are also excluded?[/quote]
Children of expatriates born in Hong Kong are considered foreigners under the Basic Law, but they woud definitely enjoy right of permanent residency (Right of Abode in HK legal parlance) if they were born before 1997. This includes most of the Indians in Hong Kong. Almost all of the Indians are permanent HK residents, but they are considered stateless persons because they have no “real” passport. Many of them carry the British Nationals Overseas “passport,” but this is considered as only a travel document by all countries because it does not confer British citizenship. These Indians can’t really apply for Indian nationality, either. India is very strict about the whole thing, which is pretty silly considering that the only people in the world who would even think of applying for Indian nationality are rich 2nd or 3rd generation overseas Indians who might be interested in investing in India.

Before 1997, Beijing took the attitude that all the Indians, Pakistanis, Nepalis, etc living in HK were Britain’s problem to deal with. They said that they would under no circumstances grant them Chinese nationality and HKSAR passports. The British gave some of these people British citizenship, but most of them remained stateless persons with permanent residecy in HK. I don’t know if the Brits were conservative about who they gave real passports (they certainly weren’t conservative in giving them to the HK Chinese who applied) or if a lot of these people just failed to apply. At present, if they are HK permanent residents then it is pretty much impossible for the government to kick them out. Also, the governments attitude about them has changed. Starting last year, the Immigration Department started to grant Chinese nationality to non-Chinese. All of the applicants have been been South Asians, with the exception of a worthless, two faced, British born, non-Chinese speaking piece of shit bureaucrat named Mike Rowse. Did I mention that I fucking hate Mike Rowse (that’s another story for another thread)? Anyway, the government has given nationality and HKSAR passports to about half a dozen south Asian PRs in the past year. They all had to attest that they held no other nationality. This means that if Jive Turkey wants to apply for citizenship, he has to give up US nationality. No thanks. The Jive Hen and all other HKSAR Chinese are allowed to have foreign nationality. Our kids will be dual nationals no matter where they are born. It has been estimated that the number of HK Chinese who hold foreign passports (not including BNO) is well over a million.

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when i got my HK id, i don’t remember attesting to anything about nationality.

but back to the original point, i thought anyone who has the HK id (right of abode) can automatically get the China travel card (wu hern zhing/ hui zheng sheng). therefore couldnt you get it too? or am i missing something.

btw, who is this rowse guy.

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Steering this back toward “learning Chinese,” has anyone applied for or gotten the PRC’s

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[quote=“Doug McKenzie”]when I got my HK id, I don’t remember attesting to anything about nationality.

but back to the original point, I thought anyone who has the HK id (right of abode) can automatically get the China travel card (wu hern zhing/ hui zheng sheng). therefore couldnt you get it too? or am i missing something.

btw, who is this rowse guy.[/quote]
There are basically three types of HK IDs. One is for people on “conditional stay.” These are people who are not permanent residents. This includes Phillipino mades, people married to HKSAR Chinese citizens, students, and foreign workers. People married to HKSAR Chinese citizens and people who get their ID through a work visa can apply for a permanent residency ID after seven years. With a permanent residency ID, you basically have the same rights in HK as a HKSAR Chinese citizen; this is often called “right of abode.” Generally, you can only get it after seven years of continuous residency. After seven years, I will have the same rights to vote as my wife. I can apply for government jobs and can run for most political offices. I would not have to have HKSAR Chinese nationality. The third type of ID is for HKSAR Chinese citizens. The only time they have more rights than a non-Chinese permanent resident is when they cross the border. Their IDs allow them to go anywhere in China and do any work they want anywhere (which means they have more rights than mainlanders).

The only time you would have to give up foreign nationality is if you wanted to apply for HKSAR Chinese nationality. There is really no good reason to do it, unless you are a stateless person or you are from a shitty, fucked up country and you need a more convenient passport. The rights of a permanent resident are pretty much equal in every way to those of a HKSAR Chinese citizen within HK. Of course, this could change in the future.

Mike Rowse is a worthless piece of shit. He is the head of a government organization called Invest Hong Kong. Seeing as how HK has been a net exporter of investment for over twenty years, there is really no need to have a government organization in charge of seeking overseas investment. He is a typical FILTH Brit (not all Brits in HK are FILTH). FILTH=Failed in London, trying Hong Kong. He came here as a backbacker about thirty years ago and stayed. He got a job in the civil service and slowly climbed his way up. After 97, British citizens in the civil service were allowed to keep their jobs as long as they were below a certain level. Only the highest civil servants have to have Chinese nationality. Well, a couple of years ago Mike Rowse (who is a Tung Cheehwa ass licking cronie) was offered the top job at Invest Hong Kong. To be allowed to take it, he had to be a Chinese citizen. Even though he can’t speak a word of Cantonese or Putonghua, he gave up his British nationality. He’s lived here for three decades and still can’t speak a word of Chinese. What a joke.

After SARS, the government wanted to bring to the world’s attention that HK had recovered. Hundreds of millions of HK$ were set aside to organize high profile events (keep in mind that the HK budget has been in deficit for the past few years). Mike Rowse was put in charge of all of this money. It was all wasted. HK held the “Harbourfest” in September. They did get a few big bands to come (Rolling Stones, Neil Young), but none of the shows in the three week line up sold out. Almost all of the acts were foreign, so most HK people didn’t care. HK had already “recovered” anyway. The worst part about the whole thing is that Rowse contracted out the work for the festival to the head of the American Chamber of Commerce, James Thompson. Thompson had no experience in concert promotion. There were plenty of skilled promotors (Chinese and expat) who could have handled it. Even worse, Rowse gave Thompson a deal that ensured that the government would cover any losses that might be incurred. In the end, hundreds of millions of HK$ were wasted. Rowse was quoted on TV say: “the Harbourfest is a ‘mega event,’ and if you want to have a ‘mega event,’ you have to spend ‘mega mega bucks’.” “Mega Mega bucks” has now creeped its way into Cantonese. It’s only used to describe something that is a waste of money. There has been a good deal of political tension in HK lately, but the one thing that foreign and Chinese, pro-Beijing and pro-democracy people can all agree on is that Mike Rowse is a worthless idiot.

16

[quote=“LittleBuddhaTW”]If you’re not willing to consider any schools outside of those three, I’d say go to Beijing. There’s plenty of stuff to do there, you’ll be learning “standard” Mandarin, and they have Dunkin’ Donuts and Dairy Queen!

I wasn’t very impressed with NTNU’s program, although it served it’s purpose for helping me get into the M.A. program at NTU. However, that’s because I really lucked out with having a good teacher, and because they were high level classes, the number of students was reasonable. When I left last August, things were really going down hill, so I’d say avoid it …

If you’re a bit adventurous, then I’d suggest going to Shaanxi Normal University in Xi’an. I’ve mentioned this in other threads, but I really enjoyed my time spent studying there. Most of the teachers were “imported” from Beijing, so your teachers at least will have a “standard” accent. You get 20 hours of classes per week, plus you can easily pay a little extra to hire one of their teachers for one-on-one classes. Room and board at their foreign students dormitory is very cheap (but so is the quality). The class sizes are small (I only had 3 students in my classes), and they will try to arrange pretty much any kind of class you’re interested in … geography, history, classical, newspaper, etc. Just let them know what you want and they’ll set it up. The only bad thing is that the materials they used weren’t that great … unless they’ve changed in the past 5 years (which is very possible). But, you could always supplement that with materials of your own, or ask the teachers to use other materials. They’re pretty laid back there, so I don’t think that would be a problem. Just something else to think about …[/quote]

LBT, do you play devil’s advocate?

First, you study in NTU now. Second, you got help from NTNU. Third, you get a scholarship. It sounds weird that you don’t encourage people to study in Taiwan.

A Baffled Taiwanese.

17

[quote=“kimichen”]Jive Turkey,

If you are interested in studying in NTNU, now the newest information is available (Jan 15).

ntnu.edu.tw/aa/aa4/aa4.html

Download the document and have a look:
ntnu.edu.tw/aa/aa4/fore/ntu_b.doc

NTNU will only test you one subject.

18

It really depends on what your specific needs are. My goal was not to learn “Mandarin” per se, but to improve my literary/classical Chinese and knowledge of Chinese literary history. For this, I was lucky to have had a very good teacher at NTNU who I studied with for a year and provided me with a great foundation. Without his help, I wouldn’t have been able to pass the NTU entrance examination. NTU is also a great place for studying Chinese literature. But, there is a big difference between coming here to studying Mandarin “language” as opposed to Chinese literature, philosophy, or history. For language, I think China is a better choice, but or literature, history, etc. Taiwan is a much better place for academics because it’s much more open and free. I can’t imagine having a research proposal on male homoeroticism in pre-modern Chinese literature approved in the mainland. So, it really depends on what your goals are …

19

Plenty of people have written here about the program at NTNU, but I haven’t seen much about the ICLP at NTU, which used to host the IUP before it moved to Qinghua University. How does the ICLP compare to the MTC? The description on their website (http://ccms.ntu.edu.tw/~iclp/) makes it seem like they are just like the IUP at Qinghua, but I’ve heard some people say that the quality has declined since the old program left. Any experiences or comparisons to share?

20

[quote=“kimichen”]For example, ironlady (Sorry I have to give an example by saying a name) said that foreigners take the same exams as Taiwanese. It’s completely wrong. At least for Shi-Da.

I am grateful for plenty of ironlady’s advice. To err is human. Don’t forget to check for yourself.[/quote]

I did check. I did so by taking the exam, and by talking to others who have done the same. I KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT ON THIS ONE, KIMI. LAY OFF, ALREADY!

I will state the obvious again: for BOTH Fujen (GITIS) and NTU (GITI), foreign and Chinese applicants take the identical entrance exams for the translation/interpretation program. Full stop.

However, it seems that what the original poster is asking about here is NOT graduate level courses in translating/interpreting but rather courses in Chinese language for foreigners, to prepare himself with a better level of Chinese to possibly take an MA in T&I or translation.

Terry