Fonda Jane?
This might be one of those times when other anti-war people might want to say, “Stay off my side.”
Ah but you can see the ridiculousness of Jane Fonda but no farther? Why is Jane any more ridiculous than what passes for normal on the anti-war left? Here you will find the most inconsistent, incoherent ramblings and blatherings of any number of rebellious individuals with various causes. A brief discussion of international law, justice or morality soon degenerates into a did so, did not kind of discussion, why? Because few among these “concerned citizens” actually have articulated a well thought out or constructed view of what the world should be and how to go about setting up such a structure. Why is it any more admirable for some young goateed, Galoise smoking poseur to participate in street protests during the day while bragging about challenging the system at night in some bar to get into some women’s pants than it is for Jane Fonda to go to Vietnam and protest the war and support her cause? They are after all based on the same root: nihilistic narcissistic self-absorbed moral equivalence. Is it ridiculous for her to do so because she is now old and therefore no longer glamorous? sufficiently passionate? not fighting in the trenches? aka whatever retail outlet or restaurant-bar she is putting her overpriced liberal arts degree to while avoiding and hating the eventual compromise with corporate America to provide health coverage and retirement benefits?
The right has their share of incoherent ramblers and blatherers, too.
Yes, Richardm, but who is leading the group in either case? In the case of the left, you have nothing but blatherers and posturers confused by moral equivalence based on polls. On the right, I would argue that agree or disagree with Bush, he has set his policies out based not on polls or winning friends but on doing what he believes is right. He is winning converts to the cause. People are debating issues in new ways. I would argue that Bush has done for our foreign policy what Reagan did for economic policy. He has shifted the debate considerably to the right and even if the Democrats win a presidency, like the new economic paradigms, they will be arguing on our territory from now on in. A few more Supreme Court justices and we may see that Bush has shifted the moral debate considerably to the right as well, though I would think that this has someway to go and will be less severe than many on the left fear because the number of Republicans who hold moderate views on the subject, including myself, are the majority. For now…
I can see it now: she’ll pose for a picture in full homicide bomber kit for an Al Jazera reporter, just as she did on the seat of a N Vietnamese AA gun 25 years ago. I doubt any AQ higher ups will be granting her propaganda interviews, though.
And what exactly is ridiculous about supporting a group of Iraq war veterans who are opposed to a continued US military presence in Iraq? Plenty of soldiers who have fought in Iraq and their families feel the same way.
Veterans Against the Iraq War
vaiw.org/vet/index.php
Veterans for Peace
veteransforpeace.org/
Iraq Veterans Against the War
ivaw.net/
UK Veterans and Families for Peace
ukveteransandfamiliesforpeace.co.uk/
What makes a heartless warmonger like Fred Smith such an expert on a war that he’s never fought in that we should respect his opinion more than the opinions of people such as those shown below who were actually there?
That’s my point. She just has too much baggage from the Vietnam war for her participation to be anything but anti-productive.
Who’s talking about legitimate groups MT? Hmmm? I am talking about Howard Dean, Jane Fonda, and many of these other “fringe” groups which somehow have taken over center stage at the Democratic Party. I personally do not mind because it has ensured that we will be leading the pack for the next 40 to 60 years given demographic changes.
BUT, wouldn’t it be nice to have someone (ironically the Democrats!!!) to keep Republican spending in line and to keep the size of the government down or even shock of shocks offer some practical suggestions and useful policy ideas. The only person on the left that I can think of capable of doing that is Joseph Lieberman. I would actually welcome some intelligent debate from the left on issues such as welfare reform, education reform, Iraq, and elsewhere but can you honestly say that is happening right now? The left today reminds me of a toddler who learns to say no and endlessly says no even when it is something that it wants, needs or should have.
Anyway, I am a heartless warmonger, but since my support of that heartless war has seen the following:
25,000 Iraqi civilians dead
1,770 American soldiers dead
AND we compare that with the millions that died under Saddam, the lack of freedom in Iraq, the lack of hope in Iraq, ditto in Afghanistan and the serious lack of rights PLUS the horrendous abuses committed by those two regimes and then factor in the votes, the hope (latest poll shows 80 percent of Iraqis believe that their nation will be better off in a year with only 8 percent saying it will get worse), then I think that the wonderful irony is that someone so heartless as I has supported efforts that have done far more to help people than the supposed “concerns” of so many on the left. When you actually get this and unravel the conundrum of how it is possible to have policies such as this that actually bring far more good, then you will be on the road to understanding why our welfare reform effort was so beneficial to families and reducing poverty, why our reform efforts in education will actually help the most vulnerable and poorest and why our efforts now will actually bring prosperity, equality and freedom to the Middle East.
So save your peace if it means millions of dead and hundreds of million oppressed while we do nothing to help lest we be considered warmongers.
Sign me up a warmonger any day if what you are defining as peace is to be so desired.
Give me war.
Every time I see that film clip of Hanoi Jane having such a good old time on an aircraft gun that was used to shoot at American planes I want to puke!!!
She is totally clueless.
I see Jane Fonda as being one of these “flavor of the month liberals.” In the 60s and early 70s – Vietnam, in the 80s-- workout videos and Yoga, late 90s – becoming a new age Christian, and now – Iraq.
Yawn. :s
First, I wasn’t aware such a film existed. I thought there were only photos. Can you please provide a link to the film?
Second, do you watch the film often? Why, if it makes you want to puke? Do you enjoy the sensation of puking?
Really? She has repeatedly admitted that it was stupid for her to pose for the photos – that it was thoughtless, horrible, a betrayal and a huge lapse of judgment – doesn’t that mean she does have a clue?
cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/ … 0297.shtml
Can you honestly tell me you never did anything that you later regretted? Did you never commit any stupid acts when you were younger that you are now ashamed of or wouldn’t want publicly broadcast to the entire world? Have you always been perfect?
I have no idea what that means – flavor of the month liberals. You’re criticizing her because she had 4 different interests over the past 40 years? How many activities have you been involved in over your lifetime? One? two? Is three interests too many?
And what’s wrong with workout videos and yoga? She was part of a huge upswell in popularity for exercise – that’s great. And she’s always had a great body to show for it. Would you like her better if she was obese?
Moreover, she’s an activist. She has the motivation to get off her ass and go out and try and change the world for the better. Good for her. :bravo:
[quote]The murders and disappearances of young women and girls in the bleak Mexican border town of Ciudad Juarez have been transformed from a forgotten tragedy into an international symbol.
The grieving mothers and local activists who have been unsuccessfully trying to draw attention to the murders for years last weekend found themselves battling through a media circus shoulder to shoulder with American actresses Jane Fonda and Sally Field.
“One of the horrors is feeling that you don’t matter, that what happens to you and your family has no impact, there are no ripples, you just don’t count,” Fonda said. “Part of our coming here is to show these mothers that we are hearing and we do care.”[/quote]
taipeitimes.com/News/world/a … 2003099096
[quote]Fonda screened her 2000 film, which focused on innovative programs developed in Nigeria to empower young girls. Done in collaboration with the International Women
[quote=“Mother Theresa”]
What makes a heartless warmonger like Fred Smith such an expert on a war that he’s never fought in that we should respect his opinion more than the opinions of people such as those shown below who were actually there?
[/quote]MT -
Care to share your service record?
Whats your DD214 tell us?
Been there, done that?
From 1st Cav Medic’s website
Jane Fonda sitting on a seat of an anti-aircraft gun
Color photo of Jane Fonda sitting in the gun seat
Jane Fonda applauding an NVA anti-aircraft gun crew.
These guns were used to shoot down American planes and
contributed to the deaths of American Airmen.
Jane Fonda is unimportant
After posting photos. . .
Almost every post in this thread already mentions the photos. As I already explained, Fonda recognizes that she screwed up – that it was wrong to pose for those photos:
The 60’s were a turbulent time, with lots of young people killing soldiers and civilians in Vietnam, protesting such killings around the world, race riots, drugs, sexual liberation and all kinds of wild things happening. Many people got caught up in the spirit of the times and did things then that they might not have done otherwise. And even without such social turmoil, haven’t we all done crazy things in the past that we later regretted? Is there nothing in your past, TC, that you are ashamed of or wouldn’t want publicly broadcast? If not, then you must have lived a terribly boring life.
[quote=“Chewycorns”]Jane Fonda is unimportant
Tainan Cowboy and Chewy:
You are on your own with our resident peace activist. I find it amusing that someone who hates Bush so much has every excuse for someone like Che Guevera and Jane Fonda and so many others that have caused nothing but problems.
For some, it is the “good intentions” that matter most, the form if you will rather than the substance. So despite the fact that Bush has brought so much good to so many places, he didn’t do it in the “acceptable” way which involves endless dialogue or dramatic posturing marches.
And there you have it, intent over morality, style over justice, flair over any good outcome.
I will leave this type of post as a perfect example of everything that I stand against. I will also luxuriate in the fact that such empty posturing sentiment is precisely what will ensure that people like me will be the only ones with input into making all the decisions over the next 40 years.
Welfare reform: It has been and will continue to be led by Republicans. Now, even Democrats are coming out talking about the need for strong families and marriage. When I read those articles, I think, hello? This is what we have been saying for 40 years while the sexual “revolution” the drug “revolution” the youth “revolution” and the secular “revolution” were in proress. Maybe if it feels good do it is not actually such a good way to live one’s life or a moral code to aspire to.
In the future, we will be in charge of education reform which will have the same beneficial results that welfare reform did. It will provide opportunities that the lower classes no longer have. Without a good education, how are they going to advance? Now, that welfare is no longer a safe fall-back position, I have a feeling that there will be many economic incentives to study harder, stay in school.
Lifestyle reform. I think that since welfare is no longer a definite sop for anyone who wants to avoid being responsible, marriage will be more and more important, excessive drugs and drinking will fall by the way side. If you have to get up and go to work, you won’t have time for partying every night or you will pay for it the next day and that will be beneficial to the health and well-being of the most vulnerable. AND people will want to stay married if they see what divorce does to their hard work and efforts and finances. This will be good for families and will result in fewer people going to prison, using drugs, being unemployed, etc. and our citiies will be safer and more vibrant places to live.
What is the left’s approach to welfare and education reform? Spend more money. That’s it. Unless I am missing something.
Now, Bush is conducting foreign-policy reform and has wracked up some very impressive results. But what do we hear from the left? Must go through the same failed institution that the UN has been since its inception.
Jane Fonda and others of her ilk epitomize this mindless, self-centered posturing.
We want peace (and who doesn’t) but sometimes peace leads to wars that are worse than fighting earlier. Ask Chamberlain.
So for the Jane Fondas and Che Gueveras and their supporters, I ask one question: What are you going to propose for welfare and education reform beyond asking for more money? What are you going to suggest for foreign policy reform outside endless discussions in the UN that lead no where? I want to know. Be part of the process rather than just trotting out the usual opposition with nothing to offer. Social security reform, what does Jane Fonda and ilk say beyond “just say no” and I thought that this was the same phrase that when used by Nancy Reagan gave them such fits of mirth.
Fred -
Its a knee-jerk response, posting the obligatory Fonda Fotos, whenever someone mentions her name in a non-derogatory manner.
Thats all I have to say about this thread.
[quote=“fred smith”]someone like snip Jane Fonda and so many others that have caused nothing but problems.[/quote]Oh come on, I heard Monster-in-Law was bad, but I didn’t think it could be that bad.
Tetsuo:
I think the point is that many of us find Jane Fonda ridiculous. We have the left constantly defending her for 30 years. Her action was treasonous. She waited a LONG time to apologize but “she meant well,” or “she was young and rebellious” or whatever excuse you want to add in here, but think of the effect on morale to have her on the radio from Hanoi criticizing her own country’s troops and giving aid and moral support to the enemy. North Vietnamese generals have long ago admitted they had lost the war militarily and that Tet was a disaster but their gamble paid off and they won the political victory. They did so because of people like Jane Fonda so to hear the usual excuses for her behavior from the usual suspects who couldn’t find a moral spine if they tried (unless it was in their knee joints) is incredibly distasteful to me.
AND at the same time, we have the same people yelling about Bush and Ashcroft and Rove and Rumsfeld but what have they done? brought freedom and the chance of finding democracy and respect for human rights to 50 million people. What did the Fondas and Gueveras of the world do? Deny it to more than a billion and for this we are supposed to “understand” because they meant well or were passionate or were trying to do the right thing or it was the times they were living in, etc etc. etc.
So we hear nothing but excuses for the well meaning people that caused more than 1 billion people to suffer and die and get sent off to gulags in the communist system and nothing but harsh criticism because we have 500 detainees in Guantanamo who deserve to be there and who are certainly not suffering and certainly not dying unless it is from over eating. We have 1,700 soldiers dead and the left cries huge crocodile tears over these as if they gave a shit about the soldiers or the military. Finally, Bush is a war criminal because 25,000 Iraqis have died from all manner of causes since we invaded 2 years ago but no one has anything to say about the MILLIONS killed by Saddam and the potential for even more deaths if he had been allowed to remain in power. So I and my ilk are warmongers while Jane Fonda was young, in love, passionate, living the moment, a product of her generation, times were confused, it was the 60s, etc. etc. What an absolute gross caricature of morality and justice and I hope that this perverted belief system eventually disappears from our land.
Sheesh, you try and inject a bit of humor into an already ridiculous thread…
I assume you’re referring to Fred’s comments about Saint Bush and the Evil Yoga Instructor. 