Jive Turkey: a couple of rules every C teacher shall follow

In the thread of how many people here can read and write Chinese characters.

Jive Turkey has made such an excellent reply that I think it should be a thread by itself.

I post it without asking Jive Turkey permission. It is not a good idea. But I have to say again that is because Jive Turkey has made such a good point.

A serious learner will surely learn something from it.

If Jive Turkey has objection, I will delete this post at once or Ironlady or any other moderator can do it.

I will greatly appreciate that.

Jive Turkey
Newspaper Copyeditor

Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 464
Location: Dong Jianhua’s Magic Kingdom
Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:18 am Post subject:


shengmar wrote:
Using the way that the Chinese use to teach a foreign adults is too difficult or actually a mission impossbile , which I think has been a fact.

How would you know? You obviously haven’t tried teaching foreigners the same way you were taught as a child.

Do you give your foreign students four to five years of instruction in just speaking and listening before having them pick up a brush? I doubt you do. That’s what a Chinese child gets. Did you start drilling away on pinyin the first day of class, before your students had any useable vocabulary? I’m guessing that’s exactly what you did. I’ve never met a Chinese kid who learned that way. Any Chinese posters here who were drilled on Hanyu Pinyin/Zhuyin Fuhao from the age of 12 months? I didn’t think so.

Shengmar, I’ve never seen you teach, but I can guess with a high degree of certainty about what your teaching methodology is like: crap. Don’t worry. Most other teachers of Chinese as a second/foreign language are in the same boat and at least you are curious about why you have been unsuccessful in teaching your students to write.

Shengmar, here are a couple of rules that I think every Chinese teacher should follow:
1.) Teach at least a few dozen useful lexical items before teaching any pinyin. That’s right, don’t give them any written record of the vocabulary they’ve learned, or at the very least, don’t show them the pinyin until after you’ve taught, drilled and used the target vocabulary in class. The only thing you should really need at first are flashcards and props.

Some of the sounds represented by pinyin are new to most foreigners. The letters that represent them in pinyin only serve to confuse the learner, not make pronunciation clearer. Only show them the pinyin for lexical items AFTER they have pronounced them correctly in teacher led drills and pair/group drills. Teaching pinyin in a vacuum is a waste of time. Ss need words before pinyin so that they will know what the pinyin is representing. It’s no different from a native Chinese speaking child.

2.) Don’t teach any characters until your students are speaking fluent survival Chinese. Until you’re satisfied that they could use spoken Chinese for eating, sleeping, shitting, getting the bus, train or taxi, going through immigration, making appointments with friends or teachers, etc., you shouldn’t teach them one character. This is no different from a native Chinese speaking child. Why would you want to make it even harder for a non-native speaking adult by throwing speaking and writing at them at the same time?

You have got to get it into your head that characters do absolutely nothing to help an elementary or low intermediate learner improve his oral proficiency. In reality, the time and effort spent on learning characters is only slowing them down on acquiring oral proficiency, which will slow them down in learning the whole language. Depending on your students, you should not teach them any characters for one or two semesters. Judging from what I’ve seen most Chinese teachers do, and I’m assuming that you are doing the same, writing is being shoved down students’ throats before they have established a good foundation in speaking, listening and the grammar of the language.

If you can get a copy of the LDS (Mormon) Missionary Training Text for Mandarin speakers (Titled Mandarin for Missionaries), it will help you a great deal in designing your courses. I know because I went through the program myself, and later taught it for two years. I should mention that I no longer have any real affiliation with the church. If the program was crap, I wouldn’t have a problem stating such. Though it isn’t perfect, it is the best program I’ve seen in 16 years of studying and teaching Mandarin.

Though the Mandarin speaking abilities of Mormon missionaries as a group tend to be overstated by Taiwanese people, most of them can get along well enough in the language within the first six months of their program that they can actually teach and convert people to the faith, in Mandarin. By the time their two-year hitch is up, 90% of them are quite fluent in spoken Mandarin (i.e. able to grab a microphone and do simultaneous interpretation, able to mimic a local on the phone well enough to fool native speakers, able to communicate most any idea clearly), and about half of them can read fluently. Writing, of course, always lags behind.

The Mormon approach to teaching Mandarin to missionaries during the eight week training program is very similar to what Jive Turkey is suggesting. The focus (with the exception of religious words–see caveat below) is on practical, survival Mandarin, and on building a solid foundation so that once missionaries arrive in Taiwan, they have something to build on. They don’t teach characters at all. The first few days are spent learning some basic vocabulary, and then a pinyin system is introduced. Grammar is taught in conjunction with vocabulary and usage. There is lots of oral practice. The largest class size is 12 students; average is eight. There are three different teachers, one each for the morning, afternoon, and night shifts. Though you feel like your brain is going to explode studying Mandarin 12 hours a day, you come out of the program having a pretty clear idea of how to get by in the language.

One caveat–there is quite a bit of vocabulary that focuses on religious terms like “temple,” “heaven,” and “baptism” that aren’t necessary for beginners to learn.

I’m sure there’s an internet copy floating around somewhere. My copy is back in my storage shed in the States.

Hmm, what’s that I smell? Could it be… a flounder?

Well if you’re going to flounder it, please wrap my post into the main thread. I should have put it there in the first place. Pisay.

To Tomas, I have tried to google Mandarin for Missionaries but there seems to be no luck.

I greatly appreciate what Jive Turkey and you have said, from which I have learnt a lot.

Acutually what I am doing has much similarity to what you have suggested.

I have tried to reply Jive Turkey but lost my rather long reply in a few malclicks five hours before.

I will think over what you two have said and try to reply later.

Well let’s see, how do we get copies of Mandarin for Missionaries?

Serious.

I found the author at Brigham Young University.
I also found some tools at a mandarin tools site.
Not bad.

[quote=“Bassman”]Well let’s see, how do we get copies of Mandarin for Missionaries?

Serious.[/quote]

Bassman, you aren’t going to need it, if your Mandarin has progressed beyond the beginner level.

However, if you want a copy, flag down the missionaries next time they come to DaChia. DaChia was part of my first territory as a missionary. We were based in ChingShui but rode our bikes up there every other day or so.

If you’re willing to listen to one of the lessons :wink: , I’m sure you could convince them to give you a copy of the text so that you can make your own copy. They all bring them over with them. If you can’t stand the lesson, just invite them to dinner or for a game of hoops. They’ll be so glad to feel like they’re working whilst enjoying the chance to speak English for a change, they’ll probably fall all over themselves to help you.

The homepage of One of the editors of the book is

asiane.byu.edu:16080/chinese/peo … robins.htm

I have written a letter to her but not sure what will happen later.

[quote=“shengmar”]The homepage of One of the editors of the book is

asiane.byu.edu:16080/Chinese/peo … robins.htm

I have written a letter to her but not sure what will happen later.[/quote]

Not likely to be willing to help you out. Copyright laws and all.

[quote=“Tomas”][quote=“Bassman”]Well let’s see, how do we get copies of Mandarin for Missionaries?

Serious.[/quote]

Bassman, you aren’t going to need it, if your Mandarin has progressed beyond the beginner level.

However, if you want a copy, flag down the missionaries next time they come to DaChia. DaChia was part of my first territory as a missionary. We were based in ChingShui but rode our bikes up there every other day or so.

If you’re willing to listen to one of the lessons :wink: , I’m sure you could convince them to give you a copy of the text so that you can make your own copy. They all bring them over with them. If you can’t stand the lesson, just invite them to dinner or for a game of hoops. They’ll be so glad to feel like they’re working whilst enjoying the chance to speak English for a change, they’ll probably fall all over themselves to help you.[/quote]

Oh, beyond the beginner level. Darn.

There are some missionaries living in Dajia, I think. If only I could track them down.

I just hope the guy that my wife insulted isn’t still around, I kind of feel sorry for him because he didn’t know what “bian tai” meant. The whole time he was talking to my wife his eyes were focused on her chest. I think he has gone.

They switch locations every few months, so he is likely long gone.

There are certainly some pervs among them. I was a good little boy, though I do remember with startling clarity a 20ish young woman sporting an outrageous cameltoe outside the library we were prospecting in front of. Funny what you remember over time.

All of this, of course, has quite a bit to do with studying Mandarin :laughing: .

[quote=“Tomas”][quote=“shengmar”]The homepage of One of the editors of the book is

asiane.byu.edu:16080/Chinese/peo … robins.htm

I have written a letter to her but not sure what will happen later.[/quote]

Not likely to be willing to help you out. Copyright laws and all.[/quote]

I offered to pay the book and the postage if it is needed.

This is a bit bold, but perhaps drop by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in ShihLin on Fu Lin Road? Of course, this may be equivalent to walking into a lion’s den :astonished:

Yep, those corn-fed farmboys predominantly from Utah and Idaho are mighty scary! Watch out, or those Mandarin lessons will result in you getting dunked in the baptismal waters!

When they’re missionaries, they’re mild as lambs, for the most part.

I just wonder if this is the best course book and learning method, it is because there is a strongest motivation behind it.

This motivation is uncomparable to some extent.

I will try to find it.