John McCain: War Hero or North Vietnam's Go-To Collaborator?

Yes. It does. I think the people spreading lies about Palin are Dimocrats. I don’t think they are Republicans. Did you think Republicans are spreading malicious lies about Palin?

How do you figure that?

Of course not.

  1. Good example of hypocrisy there.

  2. I’ve been backing up my statements with cites. Its the Dims who are posting unsubstantiated malicious rumors and lies about Palin. You don’t see that, though.

You’re just being silly. But, not really funny… well, not in a humorous way.

Here’s the guy that made the Palin accusation.
I think it’s very credible, and I don’t consider myself stupid.

[quote=“Dr. McCoy”]Here’s the guy that made the Palin accusation.
I think it’s very credible, and I don’t consider myself stupid.[/quote]

Yeah, right, Doc. Some guy who describes himself as a “somewhat deranged ex-pat Yank writing from the relative safety of Canada” blogging up in Toronto, Canada claims to have an accusation from an anonymous source in Alaska…

[sarcasm][color=#000000]That’s really credible[/color][/sarcasm].

What’s happened to you Doc? You used to post one liners that made me laugh, now it’s all RAGE about how evil the GOP is. What’s the point? Posting on a Forum for people in Taiwan won’t make any difference to who wins an election in the US.

And from what I can see neither US party has a monopoly on either good or evil.

All that the quotes from Lucille the Waitress prove is that you really should tip above 10% if want to survive in politics :slight_smile:

[quote=“KingZog”]What’s happened to you Doc? You used to post one liners that made me laugh, now it’s all RAGE about how evil the GOP is. What’s the point? Posting on a Forum for people in Taiwan won’t make any difference to who wins an election in the US.

And from what I can see neither US party has a monopoly on either good or evil.

All that the quotes from Lucille the Waitress prove is that you really should tip above 10% if want to survive in politics :slight_smile:[/quote]
I’m funny how, Funny like I’m a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I’m here to fuckin’ amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

[quote=“Dr. McCoy”][quote=“KingZog”]What’s happened to you Doc? You used to post one liners that made me laugh, now it’s all RAGE about how evil the GOP is. What’s the point? Posting on a Forum for people in Taiwan won’t make any difference to who wins an election in the US.

And from what I can see neither US party has a monopoly on either good or evil.

All that the quotes from Lucille the Waitress prove is that you really should tip above 10% if want to survive in politics :slight_smile:[/quote]
I’m funny how, Funny like I’m a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I’m here to fuckin’ amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?[/quote]

Now that was funny. :slight_smile:

Everybody needs a place to vent. Venting is good.
I welcome your venting, even if I disagree with you. It’s a good read.

Has anyone seen anything on what the Vietnamese think of all of this coverage? They weren’t happy for the initial news of the torture to get out, and they denied it for many years. Has anyone seen any reactions to the sudden reminder, that Vietnam tortured prisoners in ways that makes anything done in Abu Ghraib or Gitmo look like a night in the county jail?

I would love to be in a Vietnamese pho joint somewhere when McCain comes on TV detailing what was done to him and hear the conversations. If you see or hear anything like this let me know?

[quote=“Tigerman”][quote=“Dr. McCoy”]Here’s the guy that made the Palin accusation.
I think it’s very credible, and I don’t consider myself stupid.[/quote]

Yeah, right, Doc. Some guy who describes himself as a “somewhat deranged ex-pat Yank writing from the relative safety of Canada” blogging up in Toronto, Canada claims to have an accusation from an anonymous source in Alaska…

[sarcasm][color=#000000]That’s really credible[/color][/sarcasm].[/quote]

So the “unnamed friend” says ““It’d be easier for Lucille to hunt bears bare handed than to tell a lie.”” Lucille being “the waitress.” Lol! Somehow I doubt it, but anyway there is nothing there that can be called “credible.” Just that this guy saw fit to relate this gem is enough for me to discount anything else he says.

WTF? Put it in context man!

[quote]North Vietnam
According to the Vietnamese government, 1,100,000 North Vietnamese Army and National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam military personnel died in the conflict.[1] (Technically, some of these dead were South Vietnamese members of the NLF, but it would be impossible to separate their constituency from the total.) Estimates of civilian deaths caused by American bombing in Operation Rolling Thunder range from 52,000[2] to 182,000.[3] Complete statistics for the 1972 bombings are unavailable. Overall figures for North Vietnamese civilian dead range from 50,000[2] to “hundreds of thousands.”

South Vietnam.
The Army of the Republic of Vietnam ARVN lost approximately 184,000 servicemen during the war,[2] with some estimates as high as a quarter of a million.[5] Because it was the country most devastated by the war, South Vietnam suffered the bulk of the estimated 500,000[6] to 2,000,000[1] civilian deaths sustained by the entire Vietnamese population during the conflict; out of a possible median of 1,200,000 dead for the whole country,[6] considering the above figures for North Vietnamese losses, in South Vietnam itself about one million civilians likely died.[/quote]

There are many forms of torture. For example, for each of these deaths we can extrapolate at least 10 people that suffered.

HG

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]WTF? Put it in context man!

[quote]North Vietnam
According to the Vietnamese government, 1,100,000 North Vietnamese Army and National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam military personnel died in the conflict.[1] (Technically, some of these dead were South Vietnamese members of the NLF, but it would be impossible to separate their constituency from the total.) Estimates of civilian deaths caused by American bombing in Operation Rolling Thunder range from 52,000[2] to 182,000.[3] Complete statistics for the 1972 bombings are unavailable. Overall figures for North Vietnamese civilian dead range from 50,000[2] to “hundreds of thousands.”

South Vietnam.
The Army of the Republic of Vietnam ARVN lost approximately 184,000 servicemen during the war,[2] with some estimates as high as a quarter of a million.[5] Because it was the country most devastated by the war, South Vietnam suffered the bulk of the estimated 500,000[6] to 2,000,000[1] civilian deaths sustained by the entire Vietnamese population during the conflict; out of a possible median of 1,200,000 dead for the whole country,[6] considering the above figures for North Vietnamese losses, in South Vietnam itself about one million civilians likely died.[/quote]

There are many forms of torture. For example, for each of these deaths we can extrapolate at least 10 people that suffered.

HG[/quote]

We already know the context. At least, I’d assume anyone on these forums do. Nobody is wet behind the ears here. We’re crossfire International, man! We down! We know what;s going on.
We know the context.
I just wonder how McCain detailing his experiences goes over in Vietnam. Countries like to forget this stuff. Imagine how well it would go over if Palin was a former comfort woman or Obama spent all his time talking about his Grampa fighting Germans. I’d like to hear what Vietnam has to say about the press coverage they’re getting.
I bet if you google for “Vietnam” one of the top search resluts is about McCain being tortured. Do you think Vietnam has an opinion?

I’m quietly sure they’d think it par for the course. An American POW was tortured, so what? Visit the “Museum of American War Crimes” in Saigon, as almost all HCM school kids have since the end of hostilities, and you’ll not be so surprised if the nation raises a shrug rather than an angry eye to all this.

HG

Oh look, false, unsubstantiated claims about a candidate’s war record. Sound familiar? Utterly despicable. The difference is that most Democrats won’t sign on to these attacks, whereas the Republicans ate up the lies about Kerry. Delegates to the 2004 Republican convention wore purple, heart-shaped stickers on their cheeks to mock Kerry’s war wounds, despite the total lack of any evidence that his wounds were undeserving of the OPH.

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]I’m quietly sure they’d think it par for the course. An American POW was tortured, so what? Visit the “Museum of American War Crimes” in Saigon, as almost all HCM school kids have since the end of hostilities, and you’ll not be so surprised if the nation raises a shrug rather than an angry eye to all this.

HG[/quote]
Actually it’s more like they won’t admit to doing anything wrong -

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7459946.stm

Mind you the Vietnamese commies had a nasty track record of torturing and killing their own people so it’s not surprising that they tortured foreign POWs

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hue

[quote=“KingZog”]
Mind you the Vietnamese commies had a nasty track record of torturing and killing their own people so it’s not surprising that they tortured foreign POWs

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hue[/quote]

They did. The Americans also had a nasty record of torture and killing.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

And McCain was part of an “heroic” mission to bomb Vietnam “back to the stone ages.”

This constant valorizing of war is really quite nauseating.

It’s not the same thing. My Lai was done by criminals who were later tried by the US Army. Some US soldiers were actually given medals for trying to stop the massacre. Hueh was done by secret police types with a list of names from the North Vietnamese government. The North Vietnamese never tried anyone for Hueh because they didn’t consider it a crime, and would presumably not give medals to anyone who tried to stop them. Actually I suspect discussing it at all in Vietnam would still be very bad for your health.

Death squads, blacklists and mass graves are an absolutely fundamental part of Maoism

E.g. read this
vietnam.ttu.edu/star/images/ … 02003a.pdf

The tragedy of My Lai and the US carpet bombing is that it allowed useful idiots to claim that ‘both sides commit atrocities, war is bad, peace is good, pull the troops out’ which allowed the Communists to send their death squads into every town in Vietnam.

But the two sides were never morally comparable.

I think the mere fact that McCain comes back from Vietnam, spouting hatred like "“I hate the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live” makes me wonder if he is qualified to be the President of a multi-ethnic country with American-gooks.

If he came back like John Kerry, questioning what the US was doing in Vietnam in the first place. I might have a better opinion of the candidate.

But given his behavior and words, Mc-I-hate-gooks-they-all-look-a-like is probably better off not being in the oval office.

Like Rudy Giuliani, he’s a one-trick-pony, using his POW status like 9-11. Something to duck behind when faced with a challenging question. Like some holy cow to give deference to when mentioned.

[quote=“KingZog”]It’s not the same thing. My Lai was done by criminals who were later tried by the US Army. Some US soldiers were actually given medals for trying to stop the massacre. Hueh was done by secret police types with a list of names from the North Vietnamese government. The North Vietnamese never tried anyone for Hueh because they didn’t consider it a crime, and would presumably not give medals to anyone who tried to stop them. Actually I suspect discussing it at all in Vietnam would still be very bad for your health.

Death squads, blacklists and mass graves are an absolutely fundamental part of Maoism

E.g. read this
Vietnam.ttu.edu/star/images/ … 02003a.pdf

The tragedy of My Lai and the US carpet bombing is that it allowed useful idiots to claim that ‘both sides commit atrocities, war is bad, peace is good, pull the troops out’ which allowed the Communists to send their death squads into every town in Vietnam.

But the two sides were never morally comparable.[/quote]

Excellent post.

That’s ridiculous. He makes one ethnic slur after spending years in an NVA POW camp, so he’s not qualified to be POTUS? You’re aware that he has an adopted child that isn’t white, right?

Actually, McCain seldom mentions his war experience. He’s displayed a lot of humility given his remarkable story. Giuliani mentioned 9/11 over and over and over again in every speech and debate, and people got sick of it.

By the way, I won’t be voting for McCain. Fighting in a war does not qualify a person to be president any more than not fighting in a war disqualifies a person to be president. I defend Kerry and McCain because I believe it is dishonorable to falsely impugn someone’s service for political reasons.

I agree, for the most part. However, If you recall, it was Kerry who tried to use his war hero status in a political way, and thus I do think it was appropriate to examine his record.

McCain, by contrast, and as you correctly noted, rarely discusses his experience… although others often do.

I went back and googled Kerry’s record last night after reading your post and I have to say I am not convinced that Kerry did not enhance the record regarding his wounds. At the time, the Navy did allow him to write his own report and description of the circumstances of his wounds, so it does not surprise me that the Navy would state that all is honky dory with his records.

Nonetheless, there is still a lot of confusion regarding his record, and again, unless I am mistaken, the Navy changed the rules after Kerry left so that one can no longer write up the account of the circumstances involved in connection with his own wounds. And Kerry did leave as soon as he got a chance… all I am saying is that he is not a hero in my opinion. I am not questioning his bravery. That is no disgrace.

There is nothing dishonorable about looking at a man’s military record after he raises the same for political gain.