Just got canned from a private Jr. High. WTF?!

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
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In my first job here I was warned by my agent that getting along with people was more important than actually teaching anything. He didn’t mention what most of us have since figured out - that most of these people are really just interested in having a white face or two around the place to impress the parents so that they cough up the cash.

As a helpful, ever-present, white face they will be generally be well disposed towards you and then feel comfortable in asking you to go the extra mile, or two, or ten.

In fact it seems that there is no upper limit on what they will ask of you as long as you keep nodding and saying “Sure, I’d love to!” As soon as you start putting your foot down you are being unreasonable - I was fired from my last job because I warned them that if they were going to cancel classes at short notice then I expected to be paid like it said in my contract, and if they didn’t pay me then I would have to find another job. They fired me on the spot! I had a friend who showed up for work one day to find someone else sitting at his desk. You got nearly two month’s notice so quit bitching and use the time to find your next gig.

If you make a list of all the issues - good and bad - that have come up during your first year and use that as a basis for negotiating your next contract then you’re in with a fighting chance and can at least screen out the ones who will try and take the piss. Maybe there should be a thread on things to discuss at interviews?

For instance, it was agreed at my old high school job (and the one I’m planning to start in September) that as they were paying me for a 40hr week I was required to be there 40 hrs a week. On the other hand they were not paying me to take work home. So I graded essays etc. while sitting at my desk, was available for whoever to talk to, and if I had too much homework to mark in the time available I simply stopped giving homework until I had caught up.

This was against the rules, but as it was done non-confrontationally no-one had a problem with it. I was seen to be there beavering away, and it’s a ‘conversation’ class anyway. If your job is to teach people to SPEAK then why the hell are you doing all that paperwork?

As for the discipline thing I disagree with those who think you are in the wrong. I’ve recently been teaching classes of up to 60 bored, low ability, boys who have reached the age of 18 without ever having to speak English. (Oh for my old job back!) They don’t believe that they can do it, they don’t see any reason to try, and they have far too much other work to do to take you seriously. Given the chance they will do homework, or just sleep, and the only kind of teacher who accepts that is the sort of jerk that just wants to collect his money and have an easy life.

If you’re hired to teach then you have a duty to teach, and if you have to do something dramatic to make your students listen to you then you have a duty to do just that. I have had tantrums with classes in the past, and 90% of the time it has produced a beneficial result.

Of course, it can be pretty traumatic for your school when you do have to assert yourself so it’s a good idea to ask for their help first. But when that fails I’m all for dragging the whole class outside and teaching them in the pouring rain until they accept that a happy teacher is better than an angry teacher. (I did it once and they became my best class.)

Dave, PM me and I’ll put you in touch with the school I worked at in Jung Li. I quit due to a pay dispute with my dumb-fuck agent, but he’s out of the picture now and I’m still on good terms with the school. They’re recruiting for next year, and would love to hear from you.

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You rock! :smiley: :laughing: :sunglasses: :mrgreen:

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Attitude is the most important thing. There is always a better way than blowing your top. I have been know on occassion to blow my top but it didn’t work so I stopped doing it and found other ways to resolve situations.

A local teacher getting all hot under the collar can be understood but a foreign teacher will always be remembered as a hot head.

I used to teach at a Industrial Senior High, what a nightmare. I wanted to rip their guts out sometimes but I refrained. I will never forget one time I made a comment about 3 or 4 students in a class being rowdy and the principal had the whole class come in on Sunday to cut the grass with scissors. I was not popular with that class after that - I never requested the punishment but my name got put on it. :smiling_imp: Do I teach there now? - not a chance.
Do the students (apart from one class) remember me fondly? - Yes!
It was a struggle in the beginning but I made it and not by slamming my fists on the table and stamping my feet. :wink:

Dave, I am sure that you are a great teacher and I would like to give one piece of advice if I may. Forget about where you are from and remember where you are and play things that way. In my experience, given time, employers can even forget that you are a foreigner, but if you make yourself different all the time, well let’s say that you’ll be in for an uphill battle. Relax and get with the culture that is around you, sometimes I hate it too, but I must remember that this aint Kansas and the Muchkins are not out to get me.

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twmc, thanks for the tip. I’ll be in touch with u soon. I think I definitely want to send my resume to some non-buxiban establishments for starters. Experience at one already probably wouldn’t hurt.

I thought of some big questions I want to ask the boss at a new place:

  • What’s your policy on attendance? When it isn’t class time, where could I go?
  • What things get taken out of my gross pay each month? Could this change from month to month? How?
  • Do you have a texbook for me to use? Can I borrow it to look at it?
  • Is there an english teacher in the office right now that I could talk with?
  • Have you had a foreign teacher here before? What kinds of things did he do in the classroom? What happened to him?

Good call on the discipline, tmwc. But I can see your point too, Boss Hogg. I think ways of showing you’re not happy that don’t involve exploding do sometimes work well. If I’m in a good mood, I always try them first. I think just stopping and looking at somebody until they’ve had a few seconds of embarrassment works. Just walking by and casually taking a note or a drawing or a cheat sheet works lots better than making a big deal about it. I used the pictures the kids drew in my class under the glass on my desk. If a kid wants his picture of pikachu back, I’ll tell him it’s too good not to be in my museum. Sometimes if kids just won’t shut up or stop playing, I’ll just close my book and sit down and say “OK, you want to play and do whatever you want, that’s fine. But you have the same quiz as the other sections next week.” Then they’re dead quiet the rest of the class period.
I’m thinking of coming up with a way of giving points to classes that are cooperative, and then giving the section that got the most points some kind of reward at the end of the semester.

I know what you mean about doing things the Taiwanese way when I’m in Taiwan. But what if the Taiwanese way involves going the extra ten miles, as tmwc put it? What if they ask me to do something that’s just retarded?

I find small classes (20 kids) aren’t a big problem for me. It’s a lot easier to have whole class discussion. There’s space in the room to split off and do group work, or even get up and do an active or moving activity. Jeez maybe I’d do better in a cram school.

Dave

P.S. One further thought. This past April, when I talked to the Chairman of the Board, I reminded him that I originally had a contract for two years. Then, I proceeded to let him know in advance that I probably wouldn’t keep going at the school past the two year mark. He probably took that as a big middle finger from me, and, after hearing some stories about times when I was a little chafing to various people, said to himself, “Guess what? We don’t NEED his sorry as here.”

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tmwc wrote:

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[quote] Most of the time I find if the kids are bored it

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Sir Donald Bradman wrote:

'If your’e teaching classes of 40-50 kids in an elementary school

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Probably even more true of Junior High School. Point is, you’ve got large classes of students at varying levels. Half what you teach is going to be way to easy for half, and the rest way to hard for the other half.

Brian

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So true, Brian. I suspect in the larger conversation classes with big differences in English language ability, once the activities start, many of the students just use Chinese anyway or chat about other things, such as when you do a simple “Find someone who…” game or if you have them put together a presentation. I guess the idea is that they ought to pick up something during the explanation of the activity, might have some words or phrases reinforced during the activity in some way, shape or form, and the ones who are eager will use the opportunity to practice and learn. It certainly won’t get them fluent, but they don’t end up hating the language and hopefully have a functional base that they can get by on if they never study again (“What’s your name?” “Where is the…?”) and to build from if they get serious about it. Of course, some schools have rather lofty goals for a few hours of class a week and then there are the tests to be taught to. But that’s a whole other issue.

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This was very much my experience. Ability levels often varied quite a bit in my classes. In my first year high school writing class, the gap was ridiculous! About 8 of my 20 students could write a full page of fluent natural English on any topic imaginable. The rest could barely understand what I was saying (one girl kept turning to her friend, shrugging, and whispering “wa ti a bo”. That drove me NUTS!) Why these kids were put in the same class together, I can only imagine. Why on god’s green earth would the school let these kids take an English writing class when they didn’t even have the nitty-gritty down?

No matter how hard I tried to compromise and make a lesson that had some real content AND served everybody, and where I could judge and grade everybody on the same standard, the former group was always bored silly, and the latter prone to give up rather fast. That’s too many balls to juggle.

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Boss Hogg is right on. No matter if it is a buxiban, local company, or international company, foreign employees will always be under the microscope. The local staff in my office watch over the “foreigners” like hawks. Nothing is said when local workers show up late, clock in and then go out to get breakfast, come back late from lunch. But if one of the foreigners does this, then the office is abuzz with gossip and tales of how foreigner can get away with anything.

Sure, there is a difference in pay and perks and so on between locals and foreigners (and this has been discussed in other threads). However, I think, as Wandering Dave found out, foreign teachers and workers should be aware that what is acceptable for local teachers is not always acceptable for foregin teachers. You might be able to get away with it for a while, but in the end, it will come back to bite you.

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Nope. I’m still with Dave on the discipline thing.

Take 60 boys aged 18 who have never had to speak english before, cram them into a room so small that they are sitting 3 or 4 desks abreast with a 50cm gap to the next 3-4 desks, keep them there 14hrs a day, and then give them 1 50minute ‘english conversation’ class a week. How, precisely, does the teacher get them ‘up and moving’?

How do you make a conversation happen when half of them have trouble with “my name is …”? Role play under these circumstances? Come on!

These were the conditions at a school where I was recently spending ten hours a week. Luckily I had the experience of teaching at a better school before that and was able to adjust my style accordingly. I succeeded in making something of the classes, and usually managed to get some meaningful response from just about everybody. Also, despite the practical difficulties, they were pretty good kids at heart and understood that we all had to make the best of a bad situation.

Yes, you do that by making friends with the kids and making them like you and want to try and win your approval. You try and create a positive atmosphere, but the minute you let that excess teenage energy and boredom get out of hand you have big problems.

Like the fire that appeared at the back of the classroom one day. (“So kids, how do we describe what Pyro Joe is doing?” Get real here!)

There’s a balance to be struck, and if the students respect what is going on then they will work with you to maintain a harmonious relationship. But sometimes they need to understand that “conversation” is a 2-way street and their participation is required. If that is not driven home forcefully then the foreign teacher’s class can easily be seen as the time to goof off.

The teaching in the rain incident was a classic example. My TA couldn’t help, the HoD couldn’t do anything, the school discipline officer didn’t have any success and advocated caning the lot of them. My solution was extreme but it got results, and was done with the support of the school.

Once they realised that co-operation was easier than “pushing the envelope”, as teens are sometimes wont to do, their attitude flipped and we became the best of friends.

Tantrums are counter-productive if they’re your only weapon but can achieve a lot as part of a wider arsenal.

“Cant’ do - teaching problem, won’t do - attitude problem”

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Sure.

Have you never heard of students saving up their pent up rage until graduation and then beating the sh#$ out of a teacher they don’t like on the last day of school. Believe it or not this happens frequently in Taiwan, that is why there is usually a strong police presence in the area of schools on graduation days.

If you want to be a beaten pulp then continue with this strange behaviour. Sure the school will support you, it’s not them that are going to get beaten. I keep this in the back of my head when I have to disipline students and Taiwanese teachers do too.

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[quote]Sure.

Have you never heard of students saving up their pent up rage until graduation and then beating the sh#$ out of a teacher they don’t like on the last day of school. Believe it or not this happens frequently in Taiwan, that is why there is usually a strong police presence in the area of schools on graduation days.

If you want to be a beaten pulp then continue with this strange behaviour. Sure the school will support you, it’s not them that are going to get beaten. I keep this in the back of my head when I have to disipline students and Taiwanese teachers do too.[/quote]

If a class is a constant struggle between teacher and students then I agree that you’re going to possibly get yourself into trouble in the future. I refused to teach such a class a while back and it doesn’t matter whether it’s my fault or not that it was like that. What matters is finding a solution.

Persisting would not have helped me, or the students, and I don’t need someone who wasn’t there to tell me that. The class was outside of my abilities and there was no advantage to anyone in me being there except that someone had to get paid for being there. I know more than one alleged teacher who would have just gone through the motions and banked the dough. I didn’t, because I don’t do that. I quit the job and made way for someone more capable or more stupid.

If you insist on seeing a potential problem with everything then, er, what?

How do you teach the class? Do you stand there and drone away while they do their own things? Take the money for being the token white face and not give a shit? Or just give up and go back to babysitting for a living?

The big low-ability classes I did teach required a teacher that was able to win the respect of the students. You don’t get that by only being nice. You get it by being nice and making it clear that nice is better than the alternative. I was nice but firm and that sufficed. I had no real problems with those classes, because - as I said - they were good kids in a shitty situation and understood that we all had to make the most of it together. All I had to do was ensure that we made the most of it by co-operating with teacher instead of ignoring him. They respected me. I cut them some slack, and we all got along just fine. I passed through the school recently and the reception from the students I ran into was quite heartwarming.

As for the other class, at the earlier school. Well what would you do? Let the school disciplinarian cane everyone because I have complained about their attitude? Or not complain and pretend that there is no problem? Tell your TA that there is no problem too? Stand there, wringing your hands and saying “I know, let’s sing a song”? Let the noise and fucking around get so out of hand that the teacher next door comments on it and you lose your job?

These were not 7yr olds Boss. These were adolescents pumped full of hormones and stuck in a classroom 12 hours a day - with 3-4 hrs of homework to do a night. The majority of their teachers lecture to a sleeping class, set tests, and call that teaching. That’s what they expected of me. Resentment is understandable, and it’s something you have to overcome before they will listen to you and explore whatever alternative you can propose.

In a school where seven other foreign teachers, and the existing system, cannot provide any alternative then I’ll use unconventional methods that get results. The result in this case was that the students stopped being so bloody selfish and recognised that my feelings counted for something as well. They were not being deliberately obstructive. They were bored and frustrated by the whole system and taking it out on me because they thought they could get away with it.

Without first getting their attention there was no way to make them reconsider this viewpoint. As soon as I did they were genuinely apologetic, made a bit more effort, and I was then able to respond to their needs better. It worked fine for everyone and they even started coming to the class on time - because it was more fun than whatever it was they used to do to put off coming to the class.

Pent up rage? Bollocks! I’ve seen pent up rage, and I don’t deal with it through discipline. Give me some credit will ya? I may be weird but I’m not a total fuckwit.

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Boss Hogg replies in BOLD type in the quote.

[quote=“that brutal teacher”][quote]Sure.

Have you never heard of students saving up their pent up rage until graduation and then beating the sh#$ out of a teacher they don’t like on the last day of school. Believe it or not this happens frequently in Taiwan, that is why there is usually a strong police presence in the area of schools on graduation days.

If you want to be a beaten pulp then continue with this strange behaviour. Sure the school will support you, it’s not them that are going to get beaten. I keep this in the back of my head when I have to disipline students and Taiwanese teachers do too.[/quote]

If a class is a constant struggle between teacher and students then I agree that you’re going to possibly get yourself into trouble in the future. I refused to teach such a class a while back and it doesn’t matter whether it’s my fault or not that it was like that. What matters is finding a solution.

Find a solution but don’t be a prick about it. Standing in the Fu#$##g rain. What a :unamused: cop out for finding a better way. If I was one of their parents your head would be hanging on my living room wall.

Persisting would not have helped me, or the students, and I don’t need someone who wasn’t there to tell me that. The class was outside of my abilities and there was no advantage to anyone in me being there except that someone had to get paid for being there. I know more than one alleged teacher who would have just gone through the motions and banked the dough. I didn’t, because I don’t do that. I quit the job and made way for someone more capable or more stupid.

Sensible thing to do, I give you credit there.

If you insist on seeing a potential problem with everything then, er, what?

NO. I understood the school that I was teaching in. I knew what the students were like AND I found a way to teach, have the students respect me, and enjoy my work. Keeping the potential problem in your head was a wise thing to do in that school. Past students, past principals, and locals all told me what to expect. I would have been a fool to ignore it.

How do you teach the class? Do you stand there and drone away while they do their own things? Take the money for being the token white face and not give a shit? Or just give up and go back to babysitting for a living?

No, I teach. I don’t quit. I most certainly don’t behave like a moron and do things that would get a teacher fired in my own country. Hell, give a shit and learn some other way to get their attention and keep it. I did and the worst students in that school still respect me to this day and seek me out for lessons now that they have graduated. How many would be looking for you other than to give you a hiding?

The big low-ability classes I did teach required a teacher that was able to win the respect of the students. You don’t get that by only being nice. You get it by being nice and making it clear that nice is better than the alternative. I was nice but firm and that sufficed. I had no real problems with those classes, because - as I said - they were good kids in a shitty situation and understood that we all had to make the most of it together. All I had to do was ensure that we made the most of it by co-operating with teacher instead of ignoring him. They respected me. I cut them some slack, and we all got along just fine. I passed through the school recently and the reception from the students I ran into was quite heartwarming.

[That is just wonderful - Ignore my comments above then.[/b]

As for the other class, at the earlier school. Well what would you do? Let the school disciplinarian cane everyone because I have complained about their attitude? Or not complain and pretend that there is no problem? Tell your TA that there is no problem too? Stand there, wringing your hands and saying “I know, let’s sing a song”? Let the noise and fucking around get so out of hand that the teacher next door comments on it and you lose your job?

No, but I wouldn’t be standing the class out in the rain either. To be fair, I wasn’t there but it doesn’t sound like the sort of solution that would be acceptable anywhere I know.

These were not 7yr olds Boss. These were adolescents pumped full of hormones and stuck in a classroom 12 hours a day - with 3-4 hrs of homework to do a night. The majority of their teachers lecture to a sleeping class, set tests, and call that teaching. That’s what they expected of me. Resentment is understandable, and it’s something you have to overcome before they will listen to you and explore whatever alternative you can propose.

I am filled with fear when I think about what you would end up doing to 7 year olds.

In a school where seven other foreign teachers, and the existing system, cannot provide any alternative then I’ll use unconventional methods that get results. The result in this case was that the students stopped being so bloody selfish and recognised that my feelings counted for something as well. They were not being deliberately obstructive. They were bored and frustrated by the whole system and taking it out on me because they thought they could get away with it.

I have to admit to laughing when I first read your solution. Then I used my head and thought about the reality of the situation. NOT COOL!

Without first getting their attention there was no way to make them reconsider this viewpoint. As soon as I did they were genuinely apologetic, made a bit more effort, and I was then able to respond to their needs better. It worked fine for everyone and they even started coming to the class on time - because it was more fun than whatever it was they used to do to put off coming to the class.

Another good point but again put your method in another country where the parents would be able to confront you, the teacher, and see how it goes. Regardless of age, stand my kid out in the rain for a lesson and I’d be done at the school getting right in your face.

Pent up rage? Bollocks! I’ve seen pent up rage, and I don’t deal with it through discipline. Give me some credit will ya? I may be weird but I’m not a total fuckwit.[/quote]

Pent up rage is what I said and pent up rage is what I meant. NO, you don’t deal with it through discipline. That is a good point and I will give you credit for that. Some of those students would have been humiliated by that experience and I guess you are just lucky that nothing came of it. Perhaps they knew that you were “weird” and thought that you may be more “dangerous” than them. Do you have a neverous twitch and and look like a flesh eater :wink:
Yes, you may indeed be “weird”.
“A total fuckwit” - never met you so the jury is still out on that one.

Ok, with that out of the way, you other readers may think that this kind of reply is out of character for “Boss Hogg”, but even I have topics that I have a knee jerk reaction to and teachers behaving like this in Taiwan is one of those topics.

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Keeping my distance from my last post by posting again.

What original and creative methods of discipline and class control do all of you have?

Attention getters?

Electrodes on the chairs?

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In that case, all else counts as naught. In fact, to them you were unreasonable, troublesome and unharmonious – all of which are fatal flaws.[/quote]

You beat me to it sandman. This is the reason he was fired.

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[quote=“WanderingDave”]
I guess the bottom line is that the school and me were a poor fit, and I have a lot to learn about getting along with people in a structured work setting.[/quote]

The school and I were a poor fit.
or
The school was a poor fit for me.

Never give up. 'Cause if you do, you’re really dead in the water. Jia You!

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Niente!

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Boss Hogg wrote: