Kindergarten laws


#61

There are no foreingers with ROC Nationality. But some ROC Natioanals hold nationality of other countries.

SO I am not a foreigner, per se. Get it?


#62

Really? How so? Please do let us know all about it?


#63

There are no foreingers with ROC Nationality. But some ROC Natioanals hold nationality of other countries.

SO I am not a foreigner, per se. Get it?[/quote]

lets do a random test on a random street corner anywhere in Taiwan.

you hold up your much ballyhooed ROC passport, and scream in Chinese that it belongs to you, and I will bet any amount of money that nine out of ten people call you foreigner, American, waiguoren, laowai or adoga.


#64

There are no foreingers with ROC Nationality. But some ROC Natioanals hold nationality of other countries. So I am not a foreigner, per se. Get it?[/quote]

lets do a random test on a random street corner anywhere in Taiwan. you hold up your much ballyhooed ROC passport, and scream in Chinese that it belongs to you, and I will bet any amount of money that nine out of ten people call you foreigner, American, waiguoren, laowai or adoga.[/quote]

Well most people won’t believe it belongs to me. I get more disbelief from foreigners that I could be holding a Taiwan passport than from locals here.

I tell you what I have a better idea, We’ll invite 200 ARC ( marriage or permanent resident excluded ) holding Egnlish teachers to our local kindergarten to teach demo classes. We get it all on camera and arrange the FAP to be there as well.

We all hold up our passports and see who gets deported.


#65

[quote=“Satellite TV”]I tell you what I have a better idea, We’ll invite 200 ARC ( marriage or permanent resident excluded ) holding Egnlish teachers to our local kindergarten to teach demo classes. We get it all on camera and arrange the FAP to be there as well.

We all hold up our passports and see who gets deported.[/quote]

I like it, I like it. New reality show. Could sweep the market clear of those who are arrogant and/or ignorant enough to fall for it.

[quote=“Toasty”]I keep seeing this idea put forth in this discussion, and every time I read it I experience a moment of confused existential angst. Surely we are talking about different countries:

In the Taiwan where I live, the legality of anything depends on who you are, who you know, and how a law will interpreted.

In the other Taiwan, legal and illegal is a simple yes/no, right/wrong answer. The laws are clear and everybody knows exactly what they mean.

If I ever find out where that Taiwan is, I’m going to move there. It would make I.P. litigation a lot easier.[/quote]

In keeping nice to the newbies even though apparently oldbies are free subject, don’t teach in kindergartens or buxibans that bring in kindergarteners unless you are willing to take the risk of deportation and heavy fines. Even if it’s your visa school and your work permit says you are working for a buxiban or you are married to the head of the FAP, if they parade 5-year-olds into your class, they have just put your legal ability to remain in this country in jeopardy.

People sign contracts where they stipulate that they will not teach any kindy classes of any kind.

If it takes a banner at the airport, a sticker on the visa, or a tattoo on people’s foreheads, then so be it, just as long as there is no more confusion about the legality which, to further clarify that for the nay-sayers, is wholly different from the enforcement of a law. Using the excuse that XYZ School pays off the local inspectors so now there’s a shade of gray is like saying that because people kidnap and murder children but are never caught, it too is in a gray area of legality.

For our ECE-licensed friend, most foreigners who come to teach in Taiwan, usually are doing so in English (or French or German or Spanish). Thus they are the audience I was addressing. I’m sure if your Chinese is up to scratch to teach a full-day class completely in Mandarin, you could find out for sure through the proper channels, but for 99.99% of the other foreigners who are hired as English teachers, they can’t legally teach Taiwanese children who are below school-age.

Any teaching that can be construed as work, either voluntary or paid, would be valid grounds for application of the law. If you cook dinner for your friends, you are not a chef so beyond an attempt to be humorously pedantic, your argument makes no sense.


#66

Really? How so? Please do let us know all about it?[/quote]

Your ignorance is so funny it makes me laugh. Do you think that government officials are turning a blind eye to HESS’s kindergarten and Happy Marian’s just for free.

There are many things to be gained from the current kindergarten law both political and monetary.


#67

If you work at a Kindergarden and know it is illegal and you’re worried about getting caught.
Simply don’t do it.

What a simple, yet effective cure!


#68

[quote=“ImaniOU”]don’t teach in kindergartens or buxibans that bring in kindergarteners unless you are willing to take the risk of deportation and heavy fines

…they can’t legally teach Taiwanese children who are below school-age

Any teaching that can be construed as work, either voluntary or paid, would be valid grounds for application of the law.[/quote]
Stuff in bold is what I didn’t know. Thanks.

It’s a long time since I taught kids, but back when I did, I didn’t know the details, and most of my co-workers didn’t either - we just knew that it was illegal to teach in kindergartens, kindergartens as a institution, and didn’t know about age restrictions.

I think this age restriction issue means many buxiban teachers who thought they were legal actually aren’t. Sure I was just off the boat back when I was in that situation, but my co-workers weren’t.

I really hope the laws in question do include something that means “could be construed as work”, because I can easily imagine an idiotic law saying “Don’t teach English to kids below school age”, which would mean that all of us raising kids here and speaking to their kids in English are in technical violation of the law - and giving unscrupulous neighbours or managers or police officers or government officials that kind of hold over you could be very very bad.

So if I’ve got this right, saying “Don’t teach in a kindergarten” is actually quite misleading. What we should say is “Don’t teach English to kids below school age.” The difference beween these two statements is not merely pedantic!

Yes, Satellite TV, I know you couldn’t be deported, but my question was more about if the legal issue is over WHO can teach children below school-age, or WHAT CAN BE TAUGHT to children below school-age. So if you (or another Taiwanese person) teach English in the next room over from a newbie foreigner teaching English, you’ll both be in trouble, but while he’ll be deported you’ll be theoretically subject to fines.


#69

It would be legal for STV to teach in a kindy if he had the appropriate certificate and taught in Mandarin or Taiwanese. If he or any other ROC citizen taught an English curriculum it would be against the law, but hard to prove. With a foreign-born ROC national like STV, they would be at a loss to understand (The foreigner is has an ROC passport? He is teaching in a kindy but in Mandarin? Error! Error! Does not compute!) Anyone with a JFRV could still get nailed but most likely not deported, very unlikely in fact. But if they got caught multiple times, I’m not sure. A JFRV holder with pre-school certification frm Taiwan I think would still be illegal, just as a JFRV holder cannot be a cop or a government official. There are some jobs “off limits” to foreigners. Having pre-school certification from another country does not entitle you to working in a Taiwanese kindy, any more than having a vet’s license from Serbia automatically means you can work as a vet in Uruguay, even if you have a work visa there. There are licensing regs for many professions. Even if a law is confusing or badly enforced it does not mean contravening the law is not illegal. That is, working in a kindy as a foreigner is illegal regardless of whether some people get away with it. THERE! Now, this thread is done. You can all go home. My work here is done.


#70

I think you pretty much nailed it.

The laws in Taiwan look great on paper, but in reality they are very much flexible.
Parking your scooter inside the red line for example is fine, but anything touching or outside is not, yet we see many scooters parked on red lines and the police do nothing.
If they do indeed do something, we see only some scooters getting tickets, whilst others are left untouched.

I recently got a ticket for riding through a double white line on the road. I said sorry to the policeman… he gave me a ticket for not wearing a scooter helmet as it was cheaper.
What a nice man.


#71

Really? How so? Please do let us know all about it?[/quote]

Your ignorance is so funny it makes me laugh. Do you think that government officials are turning a blind eye to HESS’s kindergarten and Happy Marian’s just for free. There are many things to be gained from the current kindergarten law both political and monetary.[/quote]

Really, you come out and say it clearly. Are those people in the education department taking bribes? and you have evidence of this of course?


#72

[quote=“lostinasia”]So if I’ve got this right, saying “Don’t teach in a kindergarten” is actually quite misleading. What we should say is “Don’t teach English to kids below school age.” The difference beween these two statements is not merely pedantic!

Yes, Satellite TV, I know you couldn’t be deported, but my question was more about if the legal issue is over WHO can teach children below school-age, or WHAT CAN BE TAUGHT to children below school-age. So if you (or another Taiwanese person) teach English in the next room over from a newbie foreigner teaching English, you’ll both be in trouble, but while he’ll be deported you’ll be theoretically subject to fines.[/quote]

Yes that could be so but as I don’t teach I can’t say. The schools can also be fined. BY the way my understanding is that say teaching part time classes say 30 mins a day a few times a week to kindy students doesnt violate the law. Its those schools offering the full immersion of teaching soley in English. Best to check with the Education Department to find out really. I am sure they have some clue.

But as you pointed out, you taught Kindy in violation of the law but knew the risks. It’s seems many do know but are shocked when they get caught and get deported.


#73

[quote=“ImaniOU”][quote=“Satellite TV”]I tell you what I have a better idea, We’ll invite 200 ARC ( marriage or permanent resident excluded ) holding Egnlish teachers to our local kindergarten to teach demo classes. We get it all on camera and arrange the FAP to be there as well.

We all hold up our passports and see who gets deported.[/quote]

I like it, I like it. New reality show. Could sweep the market clear of those who are arrogant and/or ignorant enough to fall for it…[/quote]

There’s always good money to be made in good TV’s shows. Especially some of the stuff you see on Reality TV.


Confused About Teaching Kindy ... Again
Confused About Teaching Kindy ... Again
Confused About Teaching Kindy ... Again
#74

Seems like a lot of theory talk going on here and people who dont really know the answer to the question…here is my question…

WHAT AGE IS ILLEGAL TO TEACH IN A BUXIBAN CRAM SCHOOL LIKE HESS, GIRAFFE, JOY, ETC?

I teach at one of these kind of schools and I do teach younger children. I will not disclose ages as I dont want to incriminate myself before I have a chance to fix a problem I didn’t know existed until I read this post. And am actually more confused about after reading the banter in these threads. If I am teaching any illegal form, I will ask for them to remove the class from my schedule as I do not wish to be deported. But I need to know what the law says. Not worried about loop holes. I just need to know if there is an age limit or what the issue it. I am not certified for teaching beyond having a college degree in Experimental PPsychology from the US and am white. I dont need passport tossing, whose the more Taiwanese foreigner, etc contest.

SO…I ask again…WHAT AGE IS ILLEGAL TO TEACH IN A BUXIBAN CRAM SCHOOL LIKE HESS, GIRAFFE, JOY, ETC?


#75

[quote=“sandman”]Well, isn’t it YOU who keeps bringing up the “we foreigners should stick together” schtick? Maybe it was some other poster. If so, sorry. My point is that Taiwanese are FAR less foreign to me than Americans, so therefore I’d be more inclined to stick together with Taiwanese than Americans – if I felt the need to “stick together” with any particular nationality.

[quote]Why not have compassion for a stranger, if they are not really harming anyone?
[/quote]
But they ARE! If you happen agree with the government’s take that kiddies shouldn’t be learning English. :wink: Who am I to believe? Government education experts or angry 20-something backpackers on their unique Asian sojourn?[/quote]

You are making a large assumption in that the law was actually decided by education experts and not some legislators to gain political points.


#76

[quote=“Satellite TV”]

Actually I would support them employing foreigners as teachers in Kindergartens, as long as they held the proper professional qualifictions such as a Bachelor of Education in Early Childhood or what ever it is you need to teach at that level.[/quote]

I have no problem with this statement either. However, I am wondering if you would also hold the local “teachers” to the same standards - you know, the strong majority who have no BEC, ECE or other qualifications besides than the ability to speak Mandarin?


#77

The policy was implemented by people with PHd’s in Education in the Ministry of Education. I guess they aren’t smart enough to know what they are doing


#78

The policy was implemented by people with PHd’s in Education in the Ministry of Education. I guess they aren’t smart enough to know what they are doing[/quote]
Which law? The one outlawing the teaching of foreign languages to kindergartners? Because whoever came up with that law did so knowing or caring little about small children’s prodigious language acquisition skills.


#79

No Chris they decided that having fulltime English immersion classes was not in the best interests for the children of kindergarten ages in Taiwan. It was not about childrens ability to learn foreign languages. It was because they want children to focus on learning Mandarin as their language of schooling. As we all know many children at a very young age here do not use Mandarin at home and have to learn Mandarin at Kindergartens at a very young age. So for many learning Mandarin is just as foreign to them as is English. It’s really rough for a young kid to get to primary school and not know how to read some basic mandarin and not know Bo Po Mo Fo characters but to have better knowledge of ABC. You can undertand that yes?

You can debate all you like about little children being able to learn a foreign language but that isn’t the point here. The point is that you cannot get work permits as foreigners to teach in kindergartens, and if caught for whatever reason, you get deported. It seems that many here are willing to risk deportation to earn a little extra money. So if they know it’s illegal and teach kindergarten then get deported why get so worked up over it. Claim all you like it doesn’t hurt the little kids to learn English at such a young age and I agree.

I sent my son to the Japanese kindergarten for 3 years and he was immersed in Japanese all day. He can’t remember any of that now though but he had a great time there. I sent him there as it was the best kindergarten I could find in Taichung back in 1995. When he started first grade in the local elementary school he couldnt read Bo Po Mo Fo or Chinese lol

He couldn’t speak any English at a young age either. Not until he was about 8 years old did he start learning English. His first language was Taiwanese not Mandarin


#80

[quote=“PunishmentNow”]Seems like a lot of theory talk going on here and people who dont really know the answer to the question…here is my question…

WHAT AGE IS ILLEGAL TO TEACH IN A BUXIBAN CRAM SCHOOL LIKE HESS, GIRAFFE, JOY, ETC?

I teach at one of these kind of schools and I do teach younger children. I will not disclose ages as I don’t want to incriminate myself before I have a chance to fix a problem I didn’t know existed until I read this post. And am actually more confused about after reading the banter in these threads. If I am teaching any illegal form, I will ask for them to remove the class from my schedule as I do not wish to be deported. But I need to know what the law says. Not worried about loop holes. I just need to know if there is an age limit or what the issue it. I am not certified for teaching beyond having a college degree in Experimental PPsychology from the US and am white. I don’t need passport tossing, whose the more Taiwanese foreigner, etc contest.

SO…I ask again…WHAT AGE IS ILLEGAL TO TEACH IN A BUXIBAN CRAM SCHOOL LIKE HESS, GIRAFFE, JOY, ETC?[/quote]
I think it has been mentioned on this thread before. Six and below. In any venue, class way or form.