Kindergarten laws


#81

The policy was implemented by people with PHd’s in Education in the Ministry of Education. I guess they aren’t smart enough to know what they are doing[/quote]
Which law? The one outlawing the teaching of foreign languages to kindergartners? Because whoever came up with that law did so knowing or caring little about small children’s prodigious language acquisition skills.[/quote]
I’ll second that. If someone with a PhD in Education or Linguistics truly believes that learning a second or third language at kindergarten will have any adverse affects on first language abilities, then that person is a fool, ignorant, misinformed or all of the above. And that person’s PhD isn’t worth wiping your ass with. I’d love to know where they got it, because I’d like to make sure I or anyone I know and care about avoid that institution like the plague.


#82

Yeah, mate. But even at immersion kindys the Taiwanese teacher still teaches the kids zhuyin and outside of English class times the kids still speak Chinese to each other. And, outside of kindy they are surrounded by Mandarin speakers. I very much doubt that any child would have problems with this in Taiwan, unless they are living in an area where no one speaks Mandarin. And in such an unlikely scenario, what would a single Chinese teacher in a sea of (for example) Taiwanese help? Besides which, such an unlikely scenario would be so small in scale and prevalence that it hardly merits a law forcing each and every person (the vast majority of whom are Mandarin speakers) on the island in each and every city to only limit their child to Mandarin kindergartens. Surely parents also have a choice how they want to educate their kids? And kindergarten isn’t part of compulsory education, which makes the law all the more absurd.
And what about kids that stay with granny (who in many cases may not speak Mandarin) until grade one in families where the home language is something other than Mandarin? Should children now be forced by law to attend kindy to ensure this model of Mandarin ability before grade 1? Should the law intrude into private homes to ensure people speak Chinese at home?

But I do agree on one thing. The law is the law. Unless they change it, breaking it is at the individual’s own risk.


#83

The policy was implemented by people with PHd’s in Education in the Ministry of Education. I guess they aren’t smart enough to know what they are doing[/quote]

First show me some proof.

Not to mention that European research shows that learning foreign languages during childhood leads to better educational development.

There is definitely contradictory research to learning a foreign language as a child is harmful.


#84

[quote=“xtrain”][quote=“Satellite TV”]

Actually I would support them employing foreigners as teachers in Kindergartens, as long as they held the proper professional qualifictions such as a Bachelor of Education in Early Childhood or what ever it is you need to teach at that level.[/quote]

I have no problem with this statement either. However, I am wondering if you would also hold the local “teachers” to the same standards - you know, the strong majority who have no BEC, ECE or other qualifications besides than the ability to speak Mandarin?[/quote]

Yes, it is funny how foreigners other than buxiban teachers need to have qualifications but Taiwanese teachers do not.


#85

Go read the policy papers yourself. Who cares what European research shows. The issue is not about the ability of young children to learn foreign langauges. The issues is that it was decided not to be in the best interests for Taiwan Kindy kids to learn English in fulltime immersion classes.

Just go out an tell people to teach kindy kids English if you must. Just tell them the rewards when they are caught. :roflmao:[/quote]

Fine, I will go tell them to teach in HESS kindergarten’s since there is not risk teaching at HESS.

Furthermore people can decide that it is not in the best interest of Taiwanese students but if one is to believe that rhetoric then we need some proof or evidence.

Furthermore how does the Taiwanese department know what is in the best interest of x, y, and x student. They may move to Japan or America anyway. Some Taiwanese will probably forget most Mandarin and Taiwanese when they get older due to living abroad. I really love the fact that the Taiwanese government seems to know better than parents what language their child should be learning.


#86

The policy was implemented by people with PHd’s in Education in the Ministry of Education. I guess they aren’t smart enough to know what they are doing[/quote]

Since when does the Ministry of Education in any country implement laws? Your ignorance is beyond belief. Legislators implement laws. Ministries of Education may research laws and make suggestions to the legislative branch立法員. But ministries of education do not implement laws.[/quote]

Read what I wrote… POLICY. Education departments in many countries can determine what is legal or not. Just like the highway department can issue speed limits and the police can issue you tickets for speeding. Do you think legislators must enact a law for each. NO thats because departments can be given powers to enact statutes and laws. The same goes for local councils that can enact laws that do not need legislators to pass laws on. You seem to know little of how government works.


#87

Yes I am sure Taiwanese parents will take your advice when it comes to educating their kids. Since when did the Taiwan government prevent anybody from learning other languages? Nobody said kids can’t learn at home or with private tutors or send them to language schools. It isn’t illegal you know to do that. All governments set policies and laws for educating the masses. People tend not to forget their native language just because when they got older they moved abroad. Why should the fact that a few Taiwanese move abroad affect what is taught locally? Bismark hasn’t forgetton his native language after years of living here. I haven’t lived in native English speaking countries for 24 years yet I havent lost my English language skills.

All governments decide what can be taught at schools. They have always done so. You may not agree with what is decided but you as a foreigner here you have no say on the matter in Taiwan.


#88

We know what the policy is, and that it’s illegal for foreigners to teach kindy.

But some of us, like me, question the reasoning behind the policy.


#89

We know what the policy is, and that it’s illegal for foreigners to teach kindy.

But some of us, like me, question the reasoning behind the policy.[/quote]

I think the reasoning was that children younger than six should not be doing “heavy” academic work.

Think about it – in Taiwan, language education is memorization, for the most part, and rules, and homework. It’s not just being given structured (and correct) English input in a play or casual situation. If I recall the debate correctly, folks felt that kids were being overloaded with stress too early. That makes sense if you consider that dance and music classes are not prohibited for young children, but English, “xin suan” (doing math in one’s head) and more “rigorous” classes are.

Having see what passes for “immersion” and for “English” in Taiwan as a whole, I can’t say the policy is necessarily bad. :aiyo:


#90

[quote=“bismarck”][quote=“PunishmentNow”]Seems like a lot of theory talk going on here and people who dont really know the answer to the question…here is my question…

WHAT AGE IS ILLEGAL TO TEACH IN A BUXIBAN CRAM SCHOOL LIKE HESS, GIRAFFE, JOY, ETC?

… And am actually more confused about after reading the banter in these threads… But I need to know what the law says. Not worried about loop holes. I just need to know if there is an age limit or what the issue it.[/quote]
I think it has been mentioned on this thread before. Six and below. In any venue, class way or form.[/quote]
Ah, but is that six Chinese or six western years? And what happens at New Year? Is a kid not allowed on December 31st, and then allowed January 1st? Or do they suddenly become eligible at the start of the official school year? Do they “turn six” on the date of their birthday, or at New Year’s of the year they turn six (I think that’s the system in North America), or at the beginning of the school year when they turn six, or at Chinese New Year’s Eve of that year, or some other time?

And please, stop saying things like “It’s simple - don’t teach in a kindergarten.” [Uh, that’s directed at the forum in general, not Bismarck] Apparently that’s not the nature of the rule at all. From what I’ve read here, if a kindergarten is having some kind of program for seven-year-olds during summer vacation, then it’d be perfectly fine for a foreigner to teach there.

(Glad to know I’m not the only one who’s suddenly realized they don’t understand a law they thought they knew. And even gladder that it doesn’t actually matter in my own case.)


#91

Go read the policy papers yourself. Who cares what European research shows. Taiwan isnt in Europe. The governmetn here has formulated their own policy. You don’t agree with it so what? The issue is not about the ability of young children to learn foreign languages. The issues are that it was decided not to be in the best interests for Taiwan Kindy kids to learn English in fulltime immersion classes and that teaching at kindies is a no no for foreigners. You cannot get a work permit to teach at a kindergarten.

Just go out an tell people to teach kindy kids English if you must. Just tell them the rewards when they are caught. :roflmao:


#92

[quote=“bismarck”][quote=“PunishmentNow”]Seems like a lot of theory talk going on here and people who dont really know the answer to the question…here is my question…

WHAT AGE IS ILLEGAL TO TEACH IN A BUXIBAN CRAM SCHOOL LIKE HESS, GIRAFFE, JOY, ETC?

I teach at one of these kind of schools and I do teach younger children. I will not disclose ages as I don’t want to incriminate myself before I have a chance to fix a problem I didn’t know existed until I read this post. And am actually more confused about after reading the banter in these threads. If I am teaching any illegal form, I will ask for them to remove the class from my schedule as I do not wish to be deported. But I need to know what the law says. Not worried about loop holes. I just need to know if there is an age limit or what the issue it. I am not certified for teaching beyond having a college degree in Experimental PPsychology from the US and am white. I don’t need passport tossing, whose the more Taiwanese foreigner, etc contest.

SO…I ask again…WHAT AGE IS ILLEGAL TO TEACH IN A BUXIBAN CRAM SCHOOL LIKE HESS, GIRAFFE, JOY, ETC?[/quote]
I think it has been mentioned on this thread before. Six and below. In any venue, class way or form.[/quote]

,\maybe but was unsure if it was a speculated thing or what with all the banter of theory going on


#93

Regarding the reasoning behind the law, it’s one thing to argue that learning multiple languages (or anything else) at an early age as part of a heavy curriculum is bad. Putting pressure on young kids is not good for development, I’m sure we can all agree.

But to say that young kids are either incapable of learning multiple languages, or that this in itself is bad for their development (assuming they are relatively pressure-free in doing so) is a load of garbage.

Pressuring kids and providing them with more things to learn are mutually exclusive actions. If there is pressure, it is not a product of the material, but of the parents. And those people are going to pressure their kids excessively regardless of what is being put in front of them.

Young kids are like sponges, as long as you let them learn at their own pace and give them choices, they willingly and happily embrace it. They can learn a lot early and have fun with it and be healthy and happy mentally, as long as a definitive bar is not being set.


#94

Try not to be too silly. Its 6 at western years and CNY has nothing to do with that


#95

[quote=“mups”]Regarding the reasoning behind the law, it’s one thing to argue that learning multiple languages (or anything else) at an early age as part of a heavy curriculum is bad. Putting pressure on young kids is not good for development, I’m sure we can all agree.

But to say that young kids are either incapable of learning multiple languages, or that this in itself is bad for their development (assuming they are relatively pressure-free in doing so) is a load of garbage.

Pressuring kids and providing them with more things to learn are mutually exclusive actions. If there is pressure, it is not a product of the material, but of the parents. And those people are going to pressure their kids excessively regardless of what is being put in front of them.

Young kids are like sponges, as long as you let them learn at their own pace and give them choices, they willingly and happily embrace it. They can learn a lot early and have fun with it and be healthy and happy mentally, as long as a definitive bar is not being set.[/quote]

No one eve said the kids are not capable of doing it. Certainly not the Ministry of Education. SO maybe the government doesnt want to allow the parents to pressure the kids thereby they do not allow students under 6 years of age to attend full time ENglish immerision classes that some schools wanted to run.


#96

Try not to be too silly. Its 6 at western years and CNY has nothing to do with that[/quote]
If we’re going to be talking about what’s risking a teacher’s deportation and what’s not, I don’t think it’s silly at all. In Canada a child age five will start school in September, if they turn six by the end of that year. Is it the same here? Does that mean a five-year-old who’s in grade one can NOT be taught in English, because their sixth birthday isn’t for another few months? What determines whether or not it is legal to teach English to a child? Do they need to be in school already? Do they need to be age six NOW? Do they need to have their sixth birthday sometime in the current calendar year?

“I didn’t know I was breaking the law” used to sound idiotic for me with regards to teachers caught teaching the wrong age group, but it’s starting to sound much more plausible for many of the cram school teachers working with kids. It’s not as if these teachers are going to be checking the ID cards of every last one of their students to match birthdates - but from the sounds of it, that’s what’s techinically required to ensure legality. (Oh, but of course they can just assume that their schools have it covered…)


#97

But they do have insurance cards with their date of birth on. But you do need to know what year it currently is in Taiwanese years to figure that out.


#98

We know what the policy is, and that it’s illegal for foreigners to teach kindy.

But some of us, like me, question the reasoning behind the policy.[/quote]

I think the reasoning was that children younger than six should not be doing “heavy” academic work.

Think about it – in Taiwan, language education is memorization, for the most part, and rules, and homework. It’s not just being given structured (and correct) English input in a play or casual situation. If I recall the debate correctly, folks felt that kids were being overloaded with stress too early. That makes sense if you consider that dance and music classes are not prohibited for young children, but English, “xin suan” (doing math in one’s head) and more “rigorous” classes are.

Having see what passes for “immersion” and for “English” in Taiwan as a whole, I can’t say the policy is necessarily bad. :aiyo:[/quote]

It might be a better idea to ban Taiwanese from teaching young children English as well unless they can achieve a high score on the IELTS or another test. Teaching children incorrect English is not helpful either.


#99

Whats IELTS got to do with anything? I have seen expat teachers instructing students to write “Do you have some money?” Thinking it is correct because thats how they speak back home.

I’d suggest that just as many native English speaking teachers give just as poor lessons as many a local will. :smiley: :smiley:


#100

Whats IELTS got to do with anything? I have seen expat teachers instructing students to write “Do you have some money?” Thinking it is correct because thats how they speak back home.

I’d suggest that just as many native English speaking teachers give just as poor lessons as many a local will. :smiley: :smiley:[/quote]

Well, what do you mean by many? Native speakers make fewer mistakes than non-native speakers. As to giving poor lessons, that’s usually the fault of the school. Most of the problems in teaching English here result from shoddy standards or management techniques on the part of the Taiwanese school owners or managers, not the local nor foreign teachers.