It’s simple. The boss lied when he applied for the license. If the children are under the age of seven, and the foreigners are caught teaching them, they will be deported. Simple as that.
They don’t want to believe us. Fine be me. They’re free to go work in a school registered as a buxiban teaching kids under seven. I for one just don’t want to hear any whining when they get deported.
Perhaps they could then ask the FAP for “documentation”.
In any case. Whatever. You guys have been warned repeatedly on these boards that it’s illegal, and the same smart replies always come up. I couldn’t be bothered. You’re adults. You’ve been told what the law is. Do what you want.
It happens all the time, welcome to Taiwan. Foreign teachers work in kindergartens. Even the Taiwanese government knows where to find them. Look at schools like HESS and Happy Marian. They employ foreign kindergarten teachers all the time.
Yes, but it’s still against the law.
Bullshit. What law?
You act like the law means something? I don’t think any teachers at HESS ever get caught or deported.
Actually there is no law saying the foreigners cannot teach children before first grade. The law is that English cannot be taught more than so many hours either by Taiwanese or foreigners.
Ok, sure. Have it your way. There’s no law against foreigners teach (English) to kids under seven years of age. But if they catch you doing that, English or whatever you claim to be teaching, they’ll fine and deport you all the same.
Like I said before. Don’t give a toss one way or another. You guys are adults, know the deal and the risks involved. Good luck with that. Just don’t come pissing on here when the inevitable eventually happens.
Edit: Or are any of you denying that foreigners do and have been deported and fined for teaching kids under seven in Taiwan? Because I personally know of three in Tainan alone who have been fined and deported for this very same thing in the last year.
It’s illegal for foreigners on work permits, yes. But it is not illegal for other foreigners such as those on JFRV or Working Holiday visas. Stop saying it’s against the law when it simply isn’t (or show me the law).
B, I can’t even find the law or the rule that states that the MoE doesn’t recognise distance degrees. The fact is, they don’t. Wont help me to do one and bleat for you or anyone else to show me the law.
That said, I’m going to go down to the local FAP office sometime this week and ask them. Because we all know, JFRV, APRC or ARC, if you get caught working kindy as a foreigner, your ass is deported.
well, actually, not just foreigners, not even Taiwanese teachers can teach english "too " much in a kindergarten- that’s me. I was asked not to speak english too much if the government sent inspectors to school when I was still teaching in some kindergartens a few years ago. I know some foreigners working in kindergartens for years, and never got caught. Since I was wondering if my husband could work in one, I called the government office a couple years ago and asked them about this issue, they explained to me “why” and “why not” but they did not tell me about how it would be different if the school is registered in cram school. The government lady even told me that doesn’t matter where you r from, as long as you have no certification teaching at a kindergarten, you just can’t work there. I think Taiwanese teachers dont get reported on this because we don’t look as conspicuous as foreigners, people dont come into notice that we are different than those full time kindergarten teachers. Usually, a kindergarten get reported on this because the school’s opponent calls the government office on it. Once the school has a record on hiring foreign teachers, the government will keep their eyes on the school more often.
I could call the office again and ask them about it during the work days, when I have time away from my screaming kids.
That’s interesting. I’ve yet to hear of anyone with a JFRV or APRC being deported. Have you news of such events? Is it a long term thing or just a 24 hour piss you off special?
Yes, it is against the law for those who have a JFRV. It is just that you probably will not get deported for it. You and your school may still get fined. It is much more difficult for the government to prove but a Taiwanese teacher teaching English everyday could be fined or the school could be fined if caught by government officials.
No one is denying that foreigners get deported for working in kindergartens.
What kind of kindys did the deported foreigners work in?
Most likely that will explain why they were actually caught.
In some discussions of the laws here pertaining to foreign teachers, I feel like one of those people in Plato’s Myth of the Cave–I can only see shadows, I can’t really tell what’s going on.
It’s always been that way. I’ve never heard of anyone citing a law that clarified the situation, but I’ve heard stories on here about people being deported. Bu Lai En states that the law only applies to work permit holders, which makes sense in that teaching kindy wouldn’t be covered under their permit. I don’t know what a “working holiday” visa is, but I’ve yet to hear of a jfrv holder being deported for working illegally under any circumstances. Technically the education ministry holds that jfrv holders shouldn’t even be working in a buxiban without a permit, but the labor ministry disagrees and their interpretation holds sway. It seems to me that Bu Lai En is calling it right here. It’s likely that people are being deported simply for working outside the address conditions of their arc and not for working in a kindy per se. Has anyone been deported while teaching at the proper school and address, but specifically for teaching underage students?
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Not sure what you mean by “24 hour piss you off special”…
Anyway, I don’t know anyone with an APRC or JFRV that teaches kindergarten or kindy aged kids. As I told Okami in a pm, everyone I know that has an APRC or a JFRV either have their own business, or they teach at a uni or elementary/junior/senior high.
I would imagine that has to do with the fact that after so many years here they may be tired of teaching kids under seven, and as they don’t need work permits are clear to work at schools like elementary schools that are unable to procure work permits for foreign teachers, and in so doing get paid 75K a month with three months paid vacation a year. So why would they want to teach kindy with an APRC or a JFRV?
Be that as it may, I’m still keen on going to the FAP to find out what the deal is exactly. If they can give me something in black and white or a web link or something I’ll be sure to post it here. However, an APRC holder can get deported (for whatever reason anyone can get deported for), and although a JFRV may be safer in that regard, they could still face a fine.
Or you could just take the risk and go for it. But again, if you have an APRC or a JFRV, why the hell would you want to teach kindy when there are so many other prime jobs available to you that aren’t available to ARC holders?
I reckon you (and Bu Lai En) have it correctly, but I’d still like to check with the FAP and find out what the deal is. Although it’s beyond me why an APRC or JFRV holder would work kindy when they could get a much better deal elsewhere… 
As far as JFRV holders teaching at kindy goes, the MOE doesn’t like it, but you WILL NOT get deported. That has been made very clear by officials in the past. I’ve had the police come into my classroom, check my ARC and say “Oh, your wife is Taiwanese, that’s OK then”. I’ve had a previous boss check with the CLA and the NIA. It’s only the MOE that has a problem with it. The law is very clear that JFRV foreigners have the same work rights as citizens, therefore any regulations that prohibit this are actualyl against the law. You can’t get deported for breaking ministry regulations anyway. You can get deported for breaking the law or the terms of your visa (and the JFRV visa explicitly allows work not limited to that of foreigners under work visas). The only hitch comes down to whether ANYONE, foreigner or not, can teach fulltime English (not allowed by MOE), or teach at a kindy at all without qualifications. Locals do it. We do it. It can cause license problems with the MOE, but kindies regularly break MOE regulations, then just pretty it up (and give yout he day off) for the scheduled MOE visit. Even if you were there, it would be the school who were fined, not you.
As for why I teach kindy. Silly question. It’s for the extra 30K a month I get for working mornings, on top of my other job.
Ok, guys, I’ve just talked to the office a minute ago.
When the school is applied as “補習班bu xi ban”，it can have foreign teachers.
When the school is applied as “幼稚園yo zi yuan”，it can’t have foreign teachers.
The easy way to tell how the school is applied as is to ask the boss or see what their sign says. Usually, or as what I’ve seen, schools that applied as bu-xi-ban have their signs written as “幼兒美語學校”(Toddler English School). When it says “幼稚園yo zi yuan”, then don’t even try. “幼兒園Yo er yuan”, maybe.
Ah, ok, I’ve just talked to the office (labour afairs)again about foreigners who are married to taiwanese. Yes, they can work without a work permit, even in the kindergartens “as long as” they don’t get caught by Ministry of Education or if they have certifications of teahcing at kindergartens.