[color=#0000FF]Mod’s note: first nine posts were split from here: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=104985[/color]
If you had kids, would you like some fresh of the boat guy teaching your kid because he has a bachelors in masturbation from the university of oral sex. There is a good reason it is illegal and a good reason that it isn’t enforced all over the place.
Stop making gross fucking generalizations about English teachers here. Many are dedicated to, and believe in, what they are doing. The reasons it is illegal are not related to any moral concern about the welfare of the children and are based ignorant stereotypes…such as yours :fume: .
And, as I said above, it is the people doing the turning in who are generally the disreputable types :raspberry: . It is they who give the others on this island a bad reputation.
Stop making gross fucking generalizations about English teachers here. Many are dedicated to, and believe in, what they are doing. The reasons it is illegal are not related to any moral concern about the welfare of the children and are based ignorant stereotypes…such as yours :fume: .
And, as I said above, it is the people doing the turning in who are generally the disreputable types :raspberry: . It is they who give the others on this island a bad reputation.[/quote]
Oh please grow a (enter relevant body part).
You really think that having some native speaking prick teaching Enlgish is what is required at that age. That is where the problems lies. I don’t give a rat’s arse about how dedicated you are. You don’t know shit about developmental milestones, children’s development cycles and the likes but feel that it is a human right to have a job teacing kindy here cause you’re a native speaker and they need English. I will NEVER put my kid in a class like that. Or a school like that for that matter and that disqualifies the majority of schools here. It should be illegal because the majority of English teachers here (dedicated as they may be) have no idea what they are doing or are supposed to be doing.
Hurt by that?
Fuming?
Hitting the red face?
I couldn’t give a shit.
My kid will never be in that class.
Stop making gross fucking generalizations about English teachers here. Many are dedicated to, and believe in, what they are doing. The reasons it is illegal are not related to any moral concern about the welfare of the children and are based ignorant stereotypes…such as yours :fume: .
And, as I said above, it is the people doing the turning in who are generally the disreputable types :raspberry: . It is they who give the others on this island a bad reputation.[/quote]
Oh please grow a (enter relevant body part).
You really think that having some native speaking prick teaching Enlgish is what is required at that age. That is where the problems lies. I don’t give a rat’s arse about how dedicated you are. You don’t know shit about developmental milestones, children’s development cycles and the likes but feel that it is a human right to have a job teacing kindy here cause you’re a native speaker and they need English. I will NEVER put my kid in a class like that. Or a school like that for that matter and that disqualifies the majority of schools here. It should be illegal because the majority of English teachers here (dedicated as they may be) have no idea what they are doing or are supposed to be doing.
Hurt by that?
Fuming?
Hitting the red face?
I couldn’t give a shit.
My kid will never be in that class.[/quote]
And how is it that you know all of the English teachers on the island to be able to make such statements about the majority of them? And how is it that you know that I don’t know anything about children’s developmental milestones? You have never met me. I have been working with children both at home and in Taiwan for years. I also minored in Early Childhood Education when I was in college. It is easy to make judgements from the chair in which you sit and type this nonsense without actually getting off your ass and meeting the people you are judging.
Congratulations then.
If you are telling the truth then you would know the value of education of key developmental issues in the native language and not with some clown dancing in front of the class trying to practice his PPP. Are you trying to tell me that I should get of my ass and meet the majority of the foreigners here who misunderstand the second sentence in my post? I’d rather spend that time with my son before some overly educated (insert relevant noun) teaches them that morality and truth lies in how well you can speak English. Who’s the liar here? The child who can explain in broken English to the teacher because “no Chinese” is the rule or the kid who can’t speak English? People who speak English are great.
Really?
Am I judging you?
uhmmmmmm…Yes.
Whole Lotta Lotta: You have some background in early childhood education. Would you say you’re in the majority or minority of English teachers here? I know you probably can’t give a precise answer, but just a kind of general feeling you have about the qualifications/educational background of the average English teacher here.
Because I always hear something along the lines of most people being well intentioned, only wanting the best for the kids, etc. Let’s examine that a little bit though. Do the people running these businesses really care about the kids? If so, why do they so often go for style over substance? Why aren’t they asking for potential employees to really have a background in early childhood education? How about the parents? If the parents really care, why don’t they find out even a little bit about early childhood development and education so they can then make informed choices and ask the bosses and employees some pertinent questions? How about the employees? At what point do they admit to themselves that they really have no idea what they’re doing, and so are squandering the formative years of their students? At what point do they think they need to go and get some qualifications in early childhood education, or at least do a lot of private reading?
No, it’s just a lot easier for everyone involved to make the facile comment that everyone really cares, that everyone has good intentions. Well, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. A couple of years ago, Buttercup (not sure if you remember her) wrote that everyone thinks they’re a good person. No one actually admits to being a bad person, even if unintentionally. She also wrote that whilst lots of people teach English here, when they eventually go back to their own country, there’s no way they’d put their own children into such a situation. It’s the old it’s Asia/cultural relativism line, which contains a certain level of racism. She really stopped me in my tracks with those comments, but she’s right.
[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]
Because I always hear something along the lines of most people being well intentioned, only wanting the best for the kids, etc. Let’s examine that a little bit though. Do the people running these businesses really care about the kids? If so, why do they so often go for style over substance? Why aren’t they asking for potential employees to really have a background in early childhood education? [/quote]
Or requiring a basic background police check to ensure that the teacher doesn’t have a criminal record for, say, child abuse.
How many schools have people worked in where the teachers are told what to do in the event of a fire? Most, but not all. How many schools have people worked in where any of the teachers know what to do if a child chokes or has a fit? A few, I’d guess. How many schools have any of the posters on here worked in where the teachers are required to know basic first aid?
For those of you who work in kindys, take a look at the vans the kids come to school in. Do they have seatbelts for anyone other than the driver (“uncle” or whatever)? Take a look around your school at the fire exits and think about your employer’s attitude towards safety. Does your boss show any interest at all in potential allergies the kids may have before chucking chocolate and candy down their throats? Does the boss know the Chinese for anaphylaxis?
Great points. It is exactly my problem. You can justify it all you want, but illegal activity is illegal in any country, even if your motivations for breaking the law is your own personal set of morals. What gets me is that everyone on this forum seems to think that whatever law the Taiwanese government passes is automatically wrong. They want to be guests in Taiwan, yet live above the law.
With regards to the recent english teaching rules, it seems their basis for these conclusions are “I speak english and I am ok, so the chinese kindergarten students will be ok as well”. Our english teacher “guests” in Taiwan seem to believe they know better than the taiwan government.
To proove my point consider this post discussing learning Chiense in taiwan, the first thing people say in the post is "Learning chinese f**ks up your english! If you believe this (like I do) do you think it does to 5 year olds?
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=104898&p=1369164#p1369164
You know the Chinese government may be wrong, or it may be right, but either way Taiwan is still a self determining democracy who can and should be able to create any laws they want. Sure there is probably corruption and greedy self interests in the government, but you are kidding yourself if you don’t think the people there dont have a genuine care and concern about Taiwan.
(With regards to reporting foreigners to collect money, I am not sure it is smart, because eventually you ARE going to piss off the wrong people)
[quote=“tomthorne”][quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]
Because I always hear something along the lines of most people being well intentioned, only wanting the best for the kids, etc. Let’s examine that a little bit though. Do the people running these businesses really care about the kids? If so, why do they so often go for style over substance? Why aren’t they asking for potential employees to really have a background in early childhood education? [/quote]
Or requiring a basic background police check to ensure that the teacher doesn’t have a criminal record for, say, child abuse.
How many schools have people worked in where the teachers are told what to do in the event of a fire? Most, but not all. How many schools have people worked in where any of the teachers know what to do if a child chokes or has a fit? A few, I’d guess. How many schools have any of the posters on here worked in where the teachers are required to know basic first aid?
For those of you who work in kindys, take a look at the vans the kids come to school in. Do they have seatbelts for anyone other than the driver (“uncle” or whatever)? Take a look around your school at the fire exits and think about your employer’s attitude towards safety. Does your boss show any interest at all in potential allergies the kids may have before chucking chocolate and candy down their throats? Does the boss know the Chinese for anaphylaxis?[/quote]
Umm…I’m not sure that’s even the case at our (government junior high) school, though we do have a qualified nurse on-site, as well as at least one other teacher trained in first aid.
About the kid who spent years in the English kindy, and did not know his name or colors…maybe he was just a stupid kid.
Every school has them. I am not trying to be funny or sarcastic in anyway. I have a kid in buxiban who are unable to say “My name is…” after 6 months. All the other kids in the class are progressing well. I have discussed this with the director who told me that he is just as bad in his normal elementary school. FYI he did not go to an English kindy.
99.999% of the kids I teach who were in an English kindy are fine. Well adjusted with no problems with Chinese or English for that matter. The same applies to the actual kids I teach in kindy.
I do not claim to be an “expert in early childhood development”, but lets not go overboard. If so many kids were fucked up because they went to English kindy, none of us would be in Taiwan.
[quote=“bigduke6”]About the kid who spent years in the English kindy, and did not know his name or colors…maybe he was just a stupid kid.
Every school has them. I am not trying to be funny or sarcastic in anyway. I have a kid in buxiban who are unable to say “My name is…” after 6 months. All the other kids in the class are progressing well. I have discussed this with the director who told me that he is just as bad in his normal elementary school. FYI he did not go to an English kindy.
99.999% of the kids I teach who were in an English kindy are fine. Well adjusted with no problems with Chinese or English for that matter. The same applies to the actual kids I teach in kindy.
I do not claim to be an “expert in early childhood development”, but lets not go overboard. If so many kids were fucked up because they went to English kindy, none of us would be in Taiwan.[/quote]
I agree with everything you said. The problem is that it is not just about English. There are many other things that kids of this age need to learn that they don’t because they are in an environment where they do not understand everything. The issue is not whether you or WLL is doing a good job. I am sure you are. Even I do a few hours in a kindy each week because they feed my buxiban. I just still don’t think that spending the whole day in a foreign language environment without an expert dealing with early childhood development issues is the best way to deal with these kids. Would you honestly put your won kid in a class with someone working in a kindy if you have no idea how good he is in dealing with kids and their problems, just because he is a native speaker?
I just don’t think that packing kids off to school at 2 years old is in any way acceptable. Children have a ‘human right’ to enjoy their childhood with their families, and that includes mum and dad. Foreign language environment or not, if the parents don’t have the time or inclination to spend time with their children, they shouldn’t have them.
It is not the English teacher who is to blame here. The demand is set by the parents who can’t be bothered to look after their children properly, and that demand is filled by English teachers.
There is a market there. If teaching at kindergartens is to be illegal, remove the demand by making it illegal for parents to send their kids to an English language kindergarten and fine them as well as punishing the teacher and the school if a foreign teacher is caught in a class.
Problem solved with immediate effect. How brilliant is that?
Why the inconsistency? It strikes me as odd, especially for someone who has studied some early childhood development. It almost seems to imply that it doesn’t matter if the teachers at kindergarten aren’t good/real/proper teachers because kindergarten isn’t real school or important. If anything, isn’t it more important than high school because it precedes high school? Also, if a high school student encounters a teacher who he considers to be a dickhead, then he has the cognitive development to address that issue in different ways. He can tune the teacher out. He can study the right things by himself in his own time. He can approach others for help in dealing with the situation. A three year old can do no such thing (at best, he can probably cry and say he doesn’t like his teacher, but not why) and obviously can’t really apply any metacognition to the situation. Personally, if I had to choose who should or shouldn’t be qualified, I’d go with the kindergarten teacher over the high school teacher.
Why the inconsistency? It strikes me as odd, especially for someone who has studied some early childhood development. It almost seems to imply that it doesn’t matter if the teachers at kindergarten aren’t good/real/proper teachers because kindergarten isn’t real school or important. If anything, isn’t it more important than high school because it precedes high school? Also, if a high school student encounters a teacher who he considers to be a dickhead, then he has the cognitive development to address that issue in different ways. He can tune the teacher out. He can study the right things by himself in his own time. He can approach others for help in dealing with the situation. A three year old can do no such thing (at best, he can probably cry and say he doesn’t like his teacher, but not why) and obviously can’t really apply any metacognition to the situation. Personally, if I had to choose who should or shouldn’t be qualified, I’d go with the kindergarten teacher over the high school teacher.[/quote]
Amen.
I could not have said it better.
Why the inconsistency? It strikes me as odd, especially for someone who has studied some early childhood development. It almost seems to imply that it doesn’t matter if the teachers at kindergarten aren’t good/real/proper teachers because kindergarten isn’t real school or important. If anything, isn’t it more important than high school because it precedes high school? Also, if a high school student encounters a teacher who he considers to be a dickhead, then he has the cognitive development to address that issue in different ways. He can tune the teacher out. He can study the right things by himself in his own time. He can approach others for help in dealing with the situation. A three year old can do no such thing (at best, he can probably cry and say he doesn’t like his teacher, but not why) and obviously can’t really apply any metacognition to the situation. Personally, if I had to choose who should or shouldn’t be qualified, I’d go with the kindergarten teacher over the high school teacher.[/quote]
I like this post. My kid’s preschool has no foreign teachers, but the teachers are qualified in early education and they even send their helpers (or whatever they’re called) to preschooling classes. I like that.
Why the inconsistency? It strikes me as odd, especially for someone who has studied some early childhood development. It almost seems to imply that it doesn’t matter if the teachers at kindergarten aren’t good/real/proper teachers because kindergarten isn’t real school or important. If anything, isn’t it more important than high school because it precedes high school? Also, if a high school student encounters a teacher who he considers to be a dickhead, then he has the cognitive development to address that issue in different ways. He can tune the teacher out. He can study the right things by himself in his own time. He can approach others for help in dealing with the situation. A three year old can do no such thing (at best, he can probably cry and say he doesn’t like his teacher, but not why) and obviously can’t really apply any metacognition to the situation. Personally, if I had to choose who should or shouldn’t be qualified, I’d go with the kindergarten teacher over the high school teacher.[/quote]
I like this post. My kid’s preschool has no foreign teachers, but the teachers are qualified in early education and they even send their helpers (or whatever they’re called) to preschooling classes. I like that.[/quote]
Thanks. It’s not often I get a compliment from you. I think it makes sense that you send your child to a place with professionals, regardless of their nationality. Do you know if other parents there have similar thought about this to you? How do the costs compare to bilingual kindergartens? Is it expensive for your child’s preschool to hire qualified teachers?
Why the inconsistency? It strikes me as odd, especially for someone who has studied some early childhood development. It almost seems to imply that it doesn’t matter if the teachers at kindergarten aren’t good/real/proper teachers because kindergarten isn’t real school or important. If anything, isn’t it more important than high school because it precedes high school? Also, if a high school student encounters a teacher who he considers to be a dickhead, then he has the cognitive development to address that issue in different ways. He can tune the teacher out. He can study the right things by himself in his own time. He can approach others for help in dealing with the situation. A three year old can do no such thing (at best, he can probably cry and say he doesn’t like his teacher, but not why) and obviously can’t really apply any metacognition to the situation. Personally, if I had to choose who should or shouldn’t be qualified, I’d go with the kindergarten teacher over the high school teacher.[/quote]
Perhaps I should have said what I meant which was that I have no problem with requiring teachers who work in public schools to have teaching credentials from their home country. I didn’t mean to limit it to high schools 
.
[quote=“heimuoshu”][quote=“bigduke6”]About the kid who spent years in the English kindy, and did not know his name or colors…maybe he was just a stupid kid.
Every school has them. I am not trying to be funny or sarcastic in anyway. I have a kid in buxiban who are unable to say “My name is…” after 6 months. All the other kids in the class are progressing well. I have discussed this with the director who told me that he is just as bad in his normal elementary school. FYI he did not go to an English kindy.
99.999% of the kids I teach who were in an English kindy are fine. Well adjusted with no problems with Chinese or English for that matter. The same applies to the actual kids I teach in kindy.
I do not claim to be an “expert in early childhood development”, but lets not go overboard. If so many kids were fucked up because they went to English kindy, none of us would be in Taiwan.[/quote]
I agree with everything you said. The problem is that it is not just about English. There are many other things that kids of this age need to learn that they don’t because they are in an environment where they do not understand everything. The issue is not whether you or WLL is doing a good job. I am sure you are. Even I do a few hours in a kindy each week because they feed my buxiban. I just still don’t think that spending the whole day in a foreign language environment without an expert dealing with early childhood development issues is the best way to deal with these kids. Would you honestly put your won kid in a class with someone working in a kindy if you have no idea how good he is in dealing with kids and their problems, just because he is a native speaker?[/quote]
I never actually knew there were whole day English kindys. The one I work at only has English for 2 hrs in the AM, and in the PM it is Chinese. There is also a local teacher in the class at all times.
Would I put my own kid in with a foreign teacher with no actual credentials? On principle I would not have a problem with that. As I am foreign and my wife is local, I would want my kids to get an English and Chinese education. I guess it would depend on the school and the teacher. I have seen some great teachers in my time with no teaching credentials.
What is more concern to me is the actual rote system they have for education in general here. Robots seem to be preferred to independent thinkers.
Whole Lotta Lotta: I’m a little confused about your position.
Do you think high school teachers should be required to have credentials in their home countries? Do you think kindergarten teachers should be required to have credentials in their home countries?
Or is your point that you make a distinction between public and private schools? If so, do you think private schools should have to conform to other laws that public schools also need to conform to, such as safety laws, employment practices, taxation laws, etc.?
I just don’t think that packing kids off to school at 2 years old is in any way acceptable. Children have a ‘human right’ to enjoy their childhood with their families, and that includes mum and dad. Foreign language environment or not, if the parents don’t have the time or inclination to spend time with their children, they shouldn’t have them.
It is not the English teacher who is to blame here. The demand is set by the parents who can’t be bothered to look after their children properly, and that demand is filled by English teachers.
There is a market there. If teaching at kindergartens is to be illegal, remove the demand by making it illegal for parents to send their kids to an English language kindergarten and fine them as well as punishing the teacher and the school if a foreign teacher is caught in a class.
Problem solved with immediate effect. How brilliant is that?[/quote]
I have no idea how long you spent on that plan but you must be between jobs. Otherwise you wouldn’t have enough time to think of that.
How will fining the parents prevent anything. They will then send their kids to math kindergartens and this and that.