Kinmen: "One Country, Two Systems" test site

I said to let them decide what they want to do, didn’t say to give it back to the PRC.
I just said that, for the “historial purposes”, you have to kick out the KMT to give credibility to it. Kicking out, doesn’t mean expelling the KMT’ers, just removing the KMT out of the equation, as they are occupiers.

Funny how the Chinese who refuse to accept a politcal separation of Taiwan and China don’t actually live in Taiwan yet consider themselves masters of Taiwan’s destiny. Anyway, can you really say that HK did not accept a politcal separation with China? As I recall, that’s not exactly the way HK reunification went…

mr_boogie,

Kicking out all that disagree is a sure way to practice democracy in a republic. I’m glad the KMT learned its lesson by the time they arrived on Taiwan, after trying to purge the CPC on the mainland from the ROC.

It is comments like this that make me wonder if DPP supporters should not learn from ROC history on the mainland, instead of repeating the same mistakes on Taiwan.

:noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway:
I really wish you hadn’t bothered with that bit of drivel. Now I have no choice but to provide an alternative take on the situation:

  1. The culturally inferior Japanese invade China. The KMT struggles heroically against the Japanese and then attempt to purge the ROC of the CPC but failed.
  2. The KMT arrived on Taiwan = The KMT got kicked out of the Mainland.
  3. Lessons learned on arrival: Kick ass and control by any means possible lest your ass get kicked out again and there is nowhere else to go.
  4. Enter the ocatagon: The KMT army, hardened by years of fighting the Japanese and CCP is somehow able to subdue the unarmed population of Taiwan whose ancestors arrived from China hundreds of years ago and mixed with the local aboriginal population yet are still considered ‘Chinese’ thanks to the Confucian system of only recognizing male lineage.
  5. The locals are F*CKING PISSED OFF at having their ‘liberation’ from the Japanese replaced by an even more brutal KMT regime that kills their intellectuals, outlaws their language, swipes everything of value the Japanese had created at the locals’ expense, and treats them like second class citizens in their own land.
  6. Realizing that locals are simply unable to properly grasp what has happened because they are uneducated farmers and pirates, the KMT institutes an educational reform system that gives them a proper education in the history, values, and language of the ROC - helping them to discover their ‘Chineseness’.
  7. As a result, even though the Taiwanese remain uconvinced that the ROC is their savior, everyone does at least agree that the CCP sucks and gets on with their lives.
  8. The world suddenly acknowledges the long standing reality that - like it or not - the PRC is the government of China. Rather than accepting the humiliation of a seat in the UN under the name of Taiwan, the ROC walks out and Taiwan begins its journey as an international orphan.
  9. Although the rest of the world has known it for decades, and it directly violates the ROC constitution, it slowly begins to dawn on the ROC that even though they are still the only legitimate government of China, they only control Taiwan - and even the locals have never completely accepted that.
  10. OMFG!! The population shows their appreciation for everything the ROC has done by electing a local varmint as president.
  11. After losing yet another election to the local scoundrel and noticing the recent economic performance trend of the PRC, the ROC, shrewd realists that they are, begin to think that in the long run being a subordinate government to Beijing is far more desirable and profitable than being an opposition party competing for power with locals so they begin to work together toward a resurrection of the great Chinese nation - realizing that it will take decades for the backward CCP to catch up to the ROC. At the same time, the population comes the realization that the DPP is just as bad as the KMT, the media is a pathetic propaganda tool, and politics sucks.
  12. Meanwhile, in the eyes of the ROC the only thing more backward than the CCP are the locals who can’t seem to grasp the scope and significance of this great plan. To expedite the process the ROC needs to get back in power asap.
  13. Chinese nationalist warrior/bloggers, obsessed with the destiny of all Chinese yet comfortably residing outside China take up the cause and do their part to help foreigners and locals understand the logic and urgency of this great crusade.
  14. End result: This post, which is sure to be labeled as a deep green retaliation rant. We all waste time reading and writing these posts while politicians from all colors line their pockets and plot the future based on their own personal and political ambitions.

TaipeiDawg,

Just a few corrections:

  1. KMT “arrived” on Taiwan prior to being “escorted off” the mainland after defeating the “culturally inferior” Japanese. This was of course with the help of “souless” Communist compatroits after tense “negotiations” led by an “pot smoking” hero of a Nationalist. Of course we must also thank the “big nose hairy barbarians” from the USA for the minor role they played.

  2. Intellects that were trying to outlaw non-Formosan from ever holding office on Taiwan, are usually classified as “insurgents.”

  3. This education comes in quite handy these days when setting up shop on the Mainland. Sort of keeps the local economy humming these days.

  4. Well at least it is not the “TI” crusade that has the potential to spark a war.

This thread was about Jinmen (Kinmen). Does every thread in this forum have to degenerate into yet another independence vs. unification duel? What a bore.
:snore:

ac, I didn’t meant all that disagree, I meant all the KMT who are, by core, Chinese racists,sorry, nationalists. I even get pamphlets at my door from a local association of people from an area from China, which I don’t know exactly where, asking us to join them, for their goal of reuniting all the “lost souls”. Let me make this clear for you - for me this is like all the Portuguese living in Luxembourg (and mind you, it’s about 27% of the population, not counting the 2nd/3rd/4th generation ones who have Luxembourgish nationality) would create a party (who would normally win the elections, if they would all vote, believe me), and then would make a National Unification Council for the sake of all the Portuguese Race. Then, we would unite Luxembourg and Portugal. All the Luxembourgish which are not from the Portuguese bread would be “lusonized” for the sake of integration.

There, is that a good answer to you?

Juba you are right, but “One Country, Two Systems” is something that is all about unification vs independence.

TaipeiDawg

[color=indigo]You rule![/color]

So, capitalism wins? (again)

:secret:

I am not prepared to entertain this thread at present. I had a chance to go there and collect the necessary data earlier this year, but passed it up just for that reason. The per capita GDP figures are a good start. If we want to refocus this on the island and not unification/TI, we need more data and polls. Someone else can talk to people there and come back with info.
I presume jkinmen politicians are getting tired. They have lots of complex issues to deal with on a daily basis and are looking for an easy, fast way out. AC, Screaming Jesus, CC, you guys can form a loose fact-finding mission… See if that’s the case.

I don’t live in Kinmen, but if the majority there (referendum ?) are for a real experiment in opening 3 full links with China, the let them.

I just hope restrictions will be put on links between Kinmen and Taiwan proper.

I think its the consensus among the TI-leaning people here that Kinmen’s fate should depend on those that live in Kinmen.

Enough straw-man arguments from CCTang and AC-Dropout; as none of us speak for the entire TI community. So I think that settles it.

Brought this in from another thread since it was so far off topic…

Once again it is ignorance of ROC history that allows you to view the problem as such. ROC territory is not just Taiwan province. ROC territory, that is effective administered, also contains Matzu and Jinmen, which are not part of Taiwan province.[/quote] OK Mr. “Taiwan was an uncivilized backwater inhabited by pirates and bickering savages (and some Japanese) before it was conquered, cultured, and refined by the ROC by imparting the glory of Chinese history upon its inhabitants” Historian. Let me get this straight. Taiwan proper comprises Taiwan Province. The offshore territories are not part of Taiwan Province but they are part of ROC territory. ROC territory is not part of the PRC. However, PRC territory plus Mongolia is a part of the ROC - but only in theory and not reality. But those distinctions are not important because actually, both are part of a single China that is yet undefined but each side has its own interpretation of. - subject to change based on KMT/CCP future negotiations Do I have that right?

[quote=“ac_dropout”]The problem, which is reflected in language issue being discussed, is that not all of Taiwan agrees with DPP views on this topic and many other topics. But instead of using the republic system to try to satisfy everyone, they pursue their agenda as if everyone on Taiwan is a Minnan speaking Hoklo who has an ax to grind with the KMT.[/quote][/quote] Your extremism is no different than Hoklo extremism only the colors are reversed.

when taiwan is recognised as a de jure as well as a de facto independent country, the chinese will be pissed off as hell if kinmen and matsu remain part of taiwan, as taiwan then controls the entire taiwan strait (well, it should do so according to current nautical and international convention).

a carrot to soften the impact of this on china is offering them kinmen and matsu in exchange, so they can then draw the line of demarcation pretty much along the midpoint of the taiwan strait, as it actually is now regarded by the airforce of both countries, for example. this wil allow chinese sea traffic to proceed pretty much unhindered.

of course, penghu should remain taiwanese. you wouldn’t want to give up such a great windsurfing spot to the chinese.

and the diaoyutais? give em back to japan, there’s no fish left there anyway. that way the japanese can sort out the jurisdiction over the east china sea oil deposits from a stronger hand, and perhaps succeed in crowding out the chinese oil pirates. sorry, ‘state-sponsored and sanctioned survey missions’. in japanese waters.

Something tells me they’ll be pissed off about a bit more than that.

There are the non-Taiwan territory that ROC still administers, for example Jinmen and Matsu. This is the reality today. ROC government administers the territory of 2 provinces in China.

The Mainland are territories that ROC doesn’t administer.

And there are 2 island chains under disputed control with States other than the PRC. Sprately and Diaoyutai.

One issue where TI doesn’t have any comprehensive plan, and is somewhat backwatered in my opinion, is how to deal with territory that is not part of Taiwan province. The Taiwan centric view of these issues allows them to come to the conclusion that these territories can be “given away” to achieve TI, as urodacus voiced.

These solutions are very short sighted as in last year abduction of Taiwanese fisherman by the Japanese have shown. Since Japan make claims to Diaoyutai, they state the fishing rights up to 40 KM off Taiwan’s shores are theirs. This affects the livelihoods of ROC fishermen. Of course given PRC increasing influence in the area the Japanese usually leave PRC fishing boats alone. That’s why there was that news of ROC fishmen flying PRC flags to continue their livelihood. CSB lost quite a bit of support from his northern Hoklo base after that incident.

In addition giving away these territory cannot be done unilaterally in a vacuum. It is not like Japan, Vietnam, etc. are going to accept ROC claim of giving them territory without PRC consent.

If you relinquish the control of Jinmen and Matsu to the PRC, it basically sends a message to ROC citizens that at any moment TI supporters are willing to sell them out to achieve their own goals. The livelihoods and properties of those living on Matsu and Jinmen are not as important as TI and those living on Taiwan? What kind of leadership is that?

Since TI is so keen on giving away territory, what is to prevent PRC from implying to the international community that ROC should give away Taiwan province. The precendent would have been set already.

View from this perspective it is easy to understand why many view TI leadership as provincial and selfish.

Reading your posts “reality” means the reality TI DPP promotes and not the “reality” that is actually effecting Taiwan, ROC.

The only difference is that my views allow those that follow it a cultural advantage when doing business in the PRC. There are no traces of victim hood when I have to speak Mandarin or make Chinese cultural reference. Sitting around blaming the WSR and KMT doesn’t keep people fed.

I still don’t understand why Taiwan cannot be independent and do biz with the PRC, like every single country in the world does… speaking the same language might be a cultural advantage, but, believe me, it is not a winning one.

I was speaking with a friend from HK last week and he is looking for an engineer to his factory, to do R&D. He doesn’t care from where he is, as long as he is capable… and my own HK office is a mixture of HK people, Portuguese and Belgian… go figure that out…

Once again you have to read ROC history to understand why things are they way they are.
Pleading ignorance to history will not absolve you or any TI supporter to re-create the future based on false pretenses.

And HK wastes none of their resources trying to become independent of China, do they?
If Hoklo Supremist and TI’er stopped trying to recreate the wheel and just study how Cantonese people were able to do what they’ve been dreaming of, perhaps Taiwan wouldn’t be in the trouble they are in now.

Perhaps that is what wrong with the subethnic rivarly on Taiwan, they are not aiming high enough. Compare to the Cantonese and Toishan-ese of a few generation ago, what have the Taiwanese accomplished?

They don’t dominate SE asian economy as a group. They haven’t settled as far as the Guangdong immigrants. Compare to other Chinese, the Taiwanese have been screwing around on the same island for 400 years and just recently came to political power.

mmmm

still don’t get what history has to do with doing biz…

my friends were also saying that much money has been laundered into HK and Macau these days, which helped also improve the economy. In fact, although HK has a big anti-corruption whatever, it still is in the black list of most of the European countries for tax evasion and money laundering…must be for something…

[quote=“ac_dropout”]Once again you have to read ROC history to understand why things are they way they are. Pleading ignorance to history will not absolve you or any TI supporter to re-create the future based on false pretenses.[/quote] I don’t see Mr Boogie pleading ignorance of history - just asking legitimate questions that need not be bound by history. There is no point in accusing others of being ignorant for not understanding - and most importantly, agreeing with - ROC history and accepting it as a predeterminer for anything that happens in the future.

TaiwanDawg,

So you are justifying 1984 syndrome and re-writing Taiwan history for the ROT?

maybe Taiwan history has not been well written… talk about lack of different opinions…